The future of the immigrant church is one that all Christians should care about. Even as Asian Americans begin planting their own churches, many first-generation immigrants, including our parents, continue to attend immigrant churches. In addition, many Asian American churches continue to operate on the same campus or are even part of a larger first-generation church.
So John J. Oh’s essay on the “Silent Divergence” of the Korean immigrant church struck a chord with many of our readers. He argued that the Korean immigrant church was no longer the center of immigrant life but was now part of the margins. Rather than despairing, he called on the Korean church to rediscover her identity as a sojourner and exile to “live out the unchanging gospel of Jesus Christ.”
To gain more of his expertise and to further discuss the topic, SOLA Editorial Board member Daniel K. Eng interviewed John J. Oh. John Oh talks about what the data shows and his thoughts on the future of the immigrant church.
Editor’s Note: Below is an automated transcript of their conversation with very light editing. There may be typos and other discrepancies from the video and audio. You can listen to the audio here.
Daniel Eng: Well, hello, everyone. One more time. Well, hello, everyone. It’s Daniel here with the SOLA Network. And here I am with John Oh, from Dallas International University. And why don’t you share a little bit about yourself and about your journey? What do you do at Dallas International University?
John J. Oh: Well, hello, everybody. My name is John Oh. I’m here at Dallas International University. It’s a place where I got my training as a linguist, as a translator, me and my wife, back in ‘97-2000.
Me and my wife, we were both born in Korea. But we followed our parents and immigrated to SoCal. We grew up in Southern California. We both went to UCLA. Not at the same time. I graduated UCLA and then my wife, went to UCLA. We met afterwards, it was what do you say matchmaking? Mutual pastor. Yeah, you know, kind of like, introduced us.
So I got my education at UCLA, then went to Dallas for my linguistics, translation training. And my wife and I, we went to Southeast Asia to do linguistic research, translation work. But unfortunately, that country, a new administration came in and visa problems. And so expats were, you know, kindly asked to go back. So we had to come back.
And so we’ve been back in the States and being back in my, you know, Alma Mater, and my role at Dallas International University as Director of External Relationships. And so God has given us some resources to our university, and how can we come alongside other institutions, other networks, and share our resources, and be a place of resource for us to work together and partner together? So that’s my role here, right? Yeah. All right.
Daniel K. Eng: Well, John, you recently published an article with the Journal of Language, Culture, and Religion. It’s called “From Silent Exodus to Silent Divergence: Changing Immigrants, Society, Unchanging Immigrant Church.” And so if you could summarize a little bit about the article and then just share about, you know, what, why did you do this research? What, what’s going on here?
John J. Oh: And so even back, I have to go back to Korea. I grew up in a Christian family. And so when we came to the States, just going to church every Sunday, it was just like, second nature. So I grew up in a church. And so for the past 40 some odd years, I’ve been a part of a Korean immigrant church.
Now, when I was getting ready to go to Southeast Asia. At that time, the dynamics within the Korean immigrant church was that immigrants were no longer coming to the States. Because in Korea, they had just had ‘88 Seoul Olympics. And democracy was, you know, blooming, and economy was really growing.
And so there was actually people going, people from the States going back. And so at that time, the dynamic was, we think this Korean immigrant church is a, it’s a window, and this window is going to pretty much close in the next, you know, however, so long. And so in looking from the 90s, to the 21st century, that there’s no longer be a need for a Korean immigrant church. That was back in the 1990s. And there was also the dynamic of silent Exodus, which was, you know, the 1.5 in the second generation, English speaking generation kind of finding their own identity and leaving the church.
So I went to Southeast Asia, and then I came back. But dynamics were really different. Okay, wait a minute. Immigration is not there’s nothing to be slowing down. Matter of fact, Korean population, it seems to be exploding.
Daniel K. Eng: So it’s not what people expected.
John J. Oh: No, no, no, it was completely different than what people had expected. It was just exploding.
And so I started to gather some census data, census report, annual reports and looking at and go wow, it is really increasing.
However, by 2018, I came across some denomination reports and handful of Korean denomination reports based in the US, their annual general assembly, you know, annual report stated that the number of Korean churches in their denomination was increasing, and their membership was decreasing. And the reason that they gave the list of you know, there’s not, there’s never just one reason. But in all those cases, the very first reason they gave was because immigration was decreasing. Koreans coming from the state, one denomination report headed that was only 10% compared to the late 1980s, when it was the largest.
I saw that I knew that was not correct. Well, no, let me rephrase it. I knew it was only partially correct, that they were looking at only a partial immigration data rather than looking at the whole picture. Because I had been looking at it for the past 15-20 years, annual census reporting and annual immigration data. And so when I came across a handful of these denominations making the report I said, wait a minute, that’s not correct. They’re putting out a false narrative here.
And so I started to collect some denominational data numbers, number of churches, number of membership, and sure enough, it was decreasing. But I wanted to show that their false interpretation, false narrative, that number of churches were decreasing, because immigration number was decreasing, that that was a false interpretation. Rather, that immigration number, Korean population in the states was just exploding. So that’s why…
Daniel K. Eng: So John, you’re saying that people were saying that the reason why there’s fewer Korean immigrant churches, at least in this denomination. And within each church, the membership was decreasing, was because immigration from South Korea was decreasing. And they were attributing that decrease to the lowering numbers of the lessening numbers of, of immigrants. Is that correct?
John J. Oh: Yeah. So I mean, you know, I came 1976 and ‘70s and ‘80s. And I think up to the ‘90s, the dynamic was when people immigrated, within the Korean immigration, society, church played the community center the role.
Back then there was no, you know, internet, there was no social media. And there was a Koreatown in LA and some, you know, Koreatown in East Coast and so forth like that. But it was still, you know, in its infancy, Korean community service centers, but church was there. And so the church really played that community center role.
That’s where you went to for network. That’s where you went to gather some information, how to settle down, you know, what’s needed? Where can I find some things in order to settle down in the US.
And so, fast forward about 2030 years later, I think the church continues to have that mindset. If Koreans come to the US, they would naturally come to the church, because this church is the center of the community. And so the thought process is, well, if people come into churches decreasing, then it must be that immigration is decreasing. That’s why people are not coming. Now, that’s not the only thing, you know, for church decrease. But a lot of these denomination reports they were listing that as their first reason. Yeah.
Daniel K. Eng: What do you think has happened as a result of them attributing their lower numbers to lower immigration?
John J. Oh: So I was sharing this at another church and this one of the leaders at that church kinda chimed in. What that’s a good excuse, huh? Yeah. And so I don’t think it’s everywhere. But it can, it’s comforting. Because when you’re when your church is decreasing, when your denomination is decreasing, it can be very stressful, you know, because we want to stop that bleeding. And we want to reverse that. We want our church to grow and to increase, but continuously, it’s going down.
So as they tried to find the reason for that, I think the trap that they fell into is, oh, the immigration is decreasing. And so in a way, it becomes comforting, when we’re, we’re doing what we want to do. But we’re an immigrant church. And so for immigrant church, we need immigrants. If there are no immigrants, there’s really not much that we can do. So it kind of is a comfort trap. I think that Korean church has kind of fallen into.
Daniel K. Eng: And in terms of China, developing more and kind of innovating a bit more, and we’ll talk about that in a bit. Yeah. So what motivated you? Like what? Why did what I mean, you saw these things, but you did a lot of work. You did a lot with that, lot of numbers. Why did you spend so much time? I mean, you have some impeccable research here.
John J. Oh: Well, it wasn’t, that research wasn’t done in one year. As I said, as I share. I’ve been kind of looking at the numbers. Say, since I came back from Southeast Asia, back 2003. Because when I came back when I was going to Southeast Asia, even my mindset was, oh, immigration is decreasing. And so the Korean church, it’s just a window of time. And once that window closes, then there’s not going to be a further need for Korean immigrant church.
But when I came back, and I went to Koreatown, in LA, it was bustling, just traffic of new restaurants, and so forth. Wait a minute. Something’s not right here. And so that’s when I started to collect these census data and annual immigration yearbook reports of legal permanent residents, new legal permanent residents, and especially non immigrant visa, reporting numbers.
And when I looked at that every year, and I started to understand the trend, I go, Oh, so this is what’s happening. It was just kind of like a, I don’t if I could say, it was kind of like a side hobby for me. Because I was just looking at the data and looking at the numbers and seeing the trends.
And whenever I had an opportunity, I share it at some forum and at some conferences. But when 2018, when I saw this denomination report, when I came across this denomination report, I realized, oh, wait a minute. This can’t go on this way. Wonder if there’s some way I can share this.
And so, when there was an opportunity for me to write it up a bit better, and stylize it and then have it published. And the opportunity came. Okay. Yeah, I think this is an opportunity for me to, you know, have it out there and see, see how it response.
Daniel K. Eng: You talked about the silent Exodus before, and many of us in the Asian American church going communities know what that means. But for those who don’t, can you explain a bit more about what the silent Exodus is?
John J. Oh: So when I came, for those who are 1.5, when they come to the States, and they enter public school, and they’re able to learn, assimilate in American culture, acquire English fluency, and have, you know, American friends in their neighborhood, and so forth.
And so growing up in a church as well, there is a development of the emerging generation from the mid ‘80s to late ‘80s. Those who were more fluent in English, rather than in Korean because there was no K drama back then. There was no K Pop. There was no YouTube. And you spent most of your time to speaking English, surrounded by English back then, and even at church.
And so when those graduated high school and went to college, they couldn’t really attend adult Korean services. And so that’s when…
Daniel K. Eng: Not in Korean.
John J. Oh: Not in Korean. Because all the adult services were conducted in Korean. And if you sat there, you couldn’t understand it. And so that’s when Korean churches started to started some English service, but it just didn’t fit.
And so a lot of them just left the church at that time, but then those 1.5, you know, bilingual ministry leaders who saw that and said, Hey, we need to start a ministry for these. And so those who left the church at that time, I write it in my paper, early ‘90s, there was a debate, are we Exodus Paradigm or Exile Paradigm? You know, taking from the scriptures of the ezelich. But exile is taken as captive, whereas exodus is gaining freedom. So the Exodus Paradigm was quickly embraced over the Exile Paradigm. And then Silent Exodus was coined. So it’s those who are leaving the immigrant church and finding our own identity and establishing our own ministry. And so that’s, you know, they’re called The Silent Exodus.
Daniel K. Eng: I mean, I think I think there’s also the kind of the dynamic where a lot of people who grew up in these immigrant churches are leaving the church altogether. They’re not following Jesus anymore. And that’s the sad part of this Silent Exodus as well. Yeah. And so that was definitely happening in my circles in the Chinese American church. And sounds like what you’re, it sounds like you’ve seen a lot of that in the Korean American church, too.
John J. Oh: I think there’s three, three of those categories, those who just absolutely left the Faith altogether, and then those who left the Korean speaking and are in English speaking, Asian American, and then those who left even Asian American, and are in you know, mainline, you know, American churches, or multi ethnic churches. So I think there’s, you know, broadly speaking about three, three categories.
Daniel K. Eng: But what what, what it came down to was that the Korean immigrant church was losing many of its young people. The younger generation. Even even building even while building like an English ministry, with an English speaking service, English speaking classes, things like that. They were still, going out the back door.
John J. Oh: Going out the back door, going out the front door, going out the side door, you know? Yeah. I mean, at that time. I think the first generation they tried their best. You know, I don’t want to not not, you know, you know, put any negative, too much negative out there already.
But in that time, from their understanding, I think there were some were trying to find answers for it. But some of the answers and the solution that were put forth were reactive. And it was pragmatic solutions, rather than dealing with real core essential values of what it truly means to be that church, and it really never addressed our, you know, broken relationship generational brokenness. And so, and that’s still true today. And that’s not just Korean churches. It’s an you know, like American churches as well. So yeah, you know, yeah.
Daniel K. Eng: So you called it from Silent exodus to Silent Divergence. Why did you have that title? Tell me about Silent Divergence.
John J. Oh: So silent divert, Silent Exodus is an internal phenomenon. And so it was occurring within the Korean church community. There was that secular I mean, not secular, but broadly, overall Korean community within that Korean immigrant community was the Korean immigrant church. And so Silent Exodus is an internal phenomenon that occurred within the Korean American church community.
Silent divergence, what I refer to that is, it’s an external phenomenon. So it’s a divergence from… Korean immigrant church is diverging away from the rest of the Korean immigrant community. So it’s more about external divergence, rather, so silent Exodus is internal and silent divergences external to the Korean American church community.
Daniel K. Eng: So can you comment more about kind of this divergence moving away? That the the church moving away from the immigrant community. Tell me what’s going on there?
John J. Oh: And so I think it’s a phenomenon I think I’ve now come to realize that has developed since about year 2000. More prominently in the last 10 years, I think. From 1970s, whoa, first korean church goes back to 1910s. But the really growth was 1970s and 1980s. And it was a parallel growth. Like, you know, like taking from that line from the movie Field of Dreams. If you planted a church people came, you know, and so, as the Korean population was growing, the church was growing as well.
And so it was a parallel growth.
But after year 2000, I think there was a slow divergence, Korean population was continuing to increase. But that Korean population increase was not due to the traditional legal permanent residents, green card holders, also known as. But they were non-immigrant visa holders. There’s a categories of visitors, international students, work visa, investment visa holders. So they’re not permanent residents. They’re called temporary residents. And so they’re here for if you’re international students, you know, four years for bachelor’s, or however many for masters and PhD. If you’re here in a company Visa, you know, whatever that contract is, and if you’re for investment, whatever that means a contract is, and then once that visa is up, you go back, or you extend it, and so forth.
Daniel K. Eng: Sorry, these are so these are, these are the kind of immigrants that are, these are not the kind of immigrants that are coming to America looking for a better life kind of, kind of folks?
John J. Oh: They are, they are so so because it’s much more difficult to apply for permanent residents Green Card in Korea, because you have to wait so long. And then once your once your, you know, number comes up, then you get the green card and you get on a plane.
That number is very small, compared to those who you know, apply for a visa, and you get on a plane and you come. And so those who come with a non immigrant visa. But of those, their intention is, their ultimate intention is to get qualified for permanent visa, so that they can apply for permanent visa. And then they could adjust their status from being a international students or a company personnel to a permanent resident green card holder. And then five years later, they could apply for naturalization and citizenship.
Daniel K. Eng: Thank you for clarifying that.
John J. Oh: So starting from year 2000, there were more of those numbers that were coming as non-immigrant visa holders. And so in churches as I traveled after I came back from Southeast Asia, in lot of these churches, prayer requests are offered as, prayer requests are listed as, pray for our visa status. Pray for our status, pray for our status.
Daniel K. Eng: It’s pretty common.
John J. Oh: Yeah, what that means is not that they’re undocumented. Okay. Vast majority are not undocumented, they’re here on a valid visa. And they want to maintain that valid visa, because they have to have that valid visa in order to qualify and then apply for permanent residents.
And so they want to find a way for that, so that they can qualify to apply for permanent residency, then, you know, they can apply so so those were just vast majority of the Korean population, Korean immigrants coming starting from after 2000, those but denominational leaders were looking only at what’s called new arrivals. Those who get permanent residency, green card in Korea, get on a plane and land here. Yeah, that that’s only like 10% compared to the late 1980s. Whereas non immigrant visa holders who come to the state, that has exploded to 1800% compared to late 1980s.
Daniel K. Eng: It wasn’t that immigration, immigration numbers changed. It was more that immigration patterns changed?
John J. Oh: Yes, patterns changed.
Daniel K. Eng: So, what do you think? Why do you think there was this divergence like what do you I you you mentioned some things in your article, but you do you what are what are some reasons you think the church had a divergence from the immigrant population?
John J. Oh: I don’t think I can point to one thing. Several things that I think we can point to is ‘80s and ‘90s. Church played that community center role, people came to church to find out information, pertinent information and settling down in, in the States.
However, after 2000, with the age of internet, and, you know, all the information that you can find on the internet, there are Korean American community portal sites, you know, you can ask any question and somebody will, you know, give that answer to you on the internet.
And so, there’s really no tangible need for those kinds of people to come to church to find that information. They can get that outside of church.
And then there are those back in the ‘70s and ‘80s, you know, the place where you went to see Koreans meet Koreans and to talk Koreans was at a church, because that’s where, where you can find a gathering of, you know, 100, 200, 300. That’s one place where, you know, yeah, I know, there’s going to be Koreans. Hundred Koreans there. Five hundred Koreans there.
But now, there’s plenty of options out there, where you can find gatherings of Koreans, and it doesn’t have to be a physical place, either. And more, so I think back then, people were really looking for comfort, and so forth like that. But there’s so much option there right now, with social media with YouTube, you know, and so forth like that, that people don’t really see a tangible need.
And I think lastly, churches really fallen on a bad bad image. Both in Korea, as well as here. There’s just been several scandals, finance, financial scandals, sexual scandals. Churches really not at a good image, good name. In the past 10, 15 years, maybe that people just don’t see the church as a as a good place to be. As a good place to go to. So yeah, there’s several factors, I think that plays into that.
Daniel K. Eng: So I mean, in writing this article, publishing this, you’re hoping to correct the misconception that the dwindling numbers in Korean immigrant churches have to do with the dwindle, it has to do with some kind of dwindling immigration number.
So, you know, where do you where do you see the immigrant church go from here? Like, what do you hope, what do you hope will happen with the immigrant church?
John J. Oh: That’s a very good question. It’s a very good question. I think we need to rediscover what it truly means to be the church.
I’m not denying pragmatic solutions, because you know, there’s a need for that. I’m not denying, you know, reactive responses to issues that arise, because the church needs to address those as well.
But I think at the core of it, we’ve kind of strayed away from what it truly means to be the church. To be a sign, a signpost to the world.
Hey, world, here is the kingdom of God. Hey, world, here is a community in Koinonia. Hey, world here is three generations in one. I call it triune Generation. Hey, world here is where people reconcile with one another. Hey, world we’re all here is where, you know, first generation, 1.5, second generation. It’s difficult. It’s not perfect. But we’re on a path we’re on a journey of working together.
So rather than being reactive, what does it truly mean for the church to be proactive and demonstrating what it truly means to be the kingdom of God?
And I think another aspect of that is, how do we enter into that world? Rather than picking people off and then bringing them to us? How do we send our people, you know, the sentness into the world, so that our people, the people of God, are able to enter back into the world to demonstrate what it truly means to demonstrate that living hope than we have in Jesus Christ?
Daniel K. Eng: John, you mentioned in your article, something about a diaspora church. Can you explain that?
John J. Oh: The diaspora, it’s a term that has become very ubiquitous now. It’s from Greek word, it’s to spread, you know, to scatter. I think it was originally applied to the Jewish people only. But then, I think, in academia and in journalism, and in popular writing, as well, it has been applied to a lot of people who have been scattered from their homeland, or people who have been dispersed as well. And so that has term has been applied, both secular as well as in religion, as well.
So for us, we have been scattered from our homeland, which would be, in my case, Korea, and being here. And so we are diaspora church. So in that sense, ones who are scattered ones who are spread out. And so to continue to extend that meaning to be scattered, like what I had just shared previously, that as a diaspora church, we are to be scattered into the world to demonstrate.
And so I kind of see it as going from a transformation from an immigrant church, to a diaspora church. Because immigrant church, we have a tendency of just being to ourselves, you know, just amongst ourselves. And I think there is a need for that, especially for the immigrant, first generation. I think it’s really difficult for us to put a blame on them. Not just Korean immigrant churches, but in all other immigrant ethnic communities, there’s a place for them to, because they’re in a foreign land here. It’s just everything is so different. And I think there’s a place for ethnic immigrant church, first generation, where they can find that comfort, and they could find that community.
But it can’t remain that. It can’t remain simply as that island of just immigrant churches. It needs to go beyond that to be a scattered diaspora church into the world. Does it mean that that ethnic immigrant church dies out? No, because immigration continues to come. And so I say, you know, in my case, Korean immigrant church, there was a need for it forty years ago, there’s a need for it now. And I’m pretty sure you know, Koreans will continue to come and there will be a need for Korean ethnic immigrant churches forty years into the future as well.
But are we going to continue on with these issues that we have? Silent Exodus is not phenomenon that just happened back in the ‘80s and ‘90s. Silent Exodus will continue with this generation as well. The current Korean immigrant church, if we don’t deal with this generational disconnect, if we don’t deal with generational brokenness, that 1.5 generation, the current 21st century, 1.5 generation, they will also have a silent exodus of their own. Forty years into the future, if we don’t deal with it again. Forty years into the future in, 2060, 2050. We’re still going to continue to talk about Silent Exodus in 2050. Unless we deal with the core issue of what does it truly mean to get the church? Yeah.
Daniel K. Eng: So the paradigm of being a diaspora church is moving is is that that step that you’re saying that we need to think about what it means to be the church and being spread out and to and to be part of and to be a signpost for the world like you mentioned earlier?
Okay. Well, you know, I think you’re, I think your article, your research raises a question, you know, what about other immigrant churches? What about what about the Chinese immigrant church? What about the Latino church? Have you thought about those?
John J. Oh: So I’ve come to this, this point, because I’ve lived in I’ve lived the story for the past 46 years that I’ve lived in the States and that I’ve grown up in the Korean immigrant church. And as I think about it, okay. Because, as you’ve shared, a lot of other Asian American, and you know, there was a book published last year, that silent Exodus, even among the Latino American churches, that we see that and I’ve heard it from other Chinese American churches about these Asian Americans. And so I’m thinking would Silent Divergence be a phenomenon that we get to see in other immigrant churches?
However, Christianity for Korea is only 130 years. Our history’s 130 years. I think Christianity in China is much longer. And so my question is, how, or how is Korean church able to experience this island divergence phenomenon so quickly? You know, because in just past 10, 15 years, there has been a split between a Christian identity and Korean community.
And just, you know, off of my head, my thought was, is American secularism so powerful that it was it was able to split apart our Christian identity from our Korean community? Then my question is, okay, was that Christian identity? A true, you know, down to the worldview level Christian identity? Or was it just a, in cultural anthropology, we talk about just outside behavior, it was just a surface covering that inside the values, the moral standards, and especially the worldview, it really didn’t impact. And basically, you know, a lot of immigrants come seeking American dream. Seeking immigrant success. And once that immigrant, American dream and immigrant success has been achieved, then it’s like, Oh, I’ve got what I want. And so materialism, secularism that has been able to split it apart.
And so is our Christian identity, or is it a true Christian identity, which, again, only 130 years old. But then to other immigrant communities, especially like, there’s so many coming from South Asia. South Asia, immigrants from Middle East, North Africa, from Muslim immigrants, you know, coming and so forth. Their religious identity goes back millennials, you know, Muslim, religious identity is, like 1500 years. Hindu identity is like over 3000 years.
So I’m thinking, is American secularism so powerful, that it will split apart? Their religious identity from their cultural identity? And when I think of some of these immigrant ministries, are we taking it too simplistically? Are we thinking too simplistically? Even if they were to engage with and come to experience, Christianity, what if it turns out to be what Korean immigrant church experienced? What if they end up being a silent divergence, and re embraces their original, historical, and so forth?
So I really started to question what is going to be ministry amongst the immigrant, immigrant population? Especially as we see, South Asia, Middle East, Africa, Asian, you know, population, and there has been a lot of the reporting on the numbers that are just exploding of those people who are coming. And some ministry people see it as an opportunity. But are we approaching it too simplistically? So I guess my question, yeah. It is.
Daniel K. Eng: Well, thank you, John. This has been a really riveting conversation. And as we, as our churches think about how we are going to be approaching ministry, I think these are valuable, valuable conversations to have. And your research has furthered the conversation in a way that I’m hoping and praying that people are going to think through what it means to be ministering to immigrants, but also ministering to to those next generations, as you were talking about. So thanks for our conversation. John. I really appreciate this time.