SOLA Network had the privilege of speaking to Dr. Christopher Yuan, a Bible professor and speaker. He is also the author of the book Holy Sexuality and the Gospel: Sex, Desire, and Relationships Shaped by God’s Grand Story. Christopher Yuan spoke about how to talk about sex and sexuality in the church, especially in the Asian American Church.
Their conversation included:
- Defining sexuality
- The changes in the conversation about sexuality
- How we should talk to our kids and youth about sex
- The importance of platonic friendship
We hope you are blessed and challenged by their conversation.
Watch the interview on YouTube, listen to the audio on Podcasts, or read the transcript below. Please note the transcript has only been lightly edited and may contain spelling or grammatical errors.
SOLA Network: To start us off, how do you define sexuality?
Christopher Yuan: So sexuality is something that is related to our desires or behaviors, attractions or actions that are either romantic or sexual in nature that could be towards someone of the opposite sex, same sex, both, or neither.
But I think it’s important to talk about how it’s not just the actions but it’s also the internal experiences that we have. But also delineating between that it’s not just sexual desires because sexuality isn’t just all about sex, but it isn’t about everything either. And we’re also seeing that it’s romantic. So for example, for women, oftentimes, their sexuality is less about erotic, physical, or visual aspects of sexuality and more about emotions and that romantic desire. But also being careful not to kind of broaden out so much where sexuality includes almost everything, every aspect of our life.
For example, if I have a desire to be a really close friend to another, my best friend and another guy, I would not say that that is part of sexuality because if we brought it out that much, then everyone will be bisexual, and we know that’s not the case. So sexuality would be regarding our attractions or actions that are either romantic or sexual toward another person.
SOLA Network: And that is an expanded view from where most of our churches were 20 years ago. How has that expansion come about? And what are some of the ways in which it’s still not quite being understood?
Christopher Yuan: Well, and I think a lot of it is just culture. So you know, we’re coming out of the sexual revolution in the, I don’t know, maybe 60s, or whatever that is, where sex, and therefore sexuality as well, was a very taboo subject, it was just something that happened in the home.
Even the TV shows in the black and white era, so maybe the 50s, 60s, or whatever, even the early 70s, you had married couples, and if they shot something in the bedroom, they had two beds. We look at that, we just kind of laugh, but that was actually very, very common, not just for TV shows. You talk to maybe some older, Caucasian American couples where their grandparents, they actually slept in two different beds.
So there was this incorrect sense that sex was not only private, but it was kind of dirty. Unfortunately, we have some of that history in our church history as well, where the early church and some of the early church fathers almost viewed any sex as dirty, and it was almost sinful to even have any sexual desires, even if it was for your own wife or for your own spouse. So we have that baggage.
But then the sexual revolution in the 60s kind of blew that open, where now sexuality is much more talked about. And so that’s where we have now where before it was just not talked about at all. And it was the only thing that was accepted was between a man and a woman or husband and wife. But now of course, that kind of blew things open where now there’s a much broader expansion of what sexuality is and what always it has been, but it just wasn’t talked about because it was so stigmatized.
SOLA Network: In the last like 20 years, especially specifically within the Asian American church, how have you seen those discussions and definitions around sexuality change?
Christopher Yuan: You know, in Asian American churches because of our culture, we come from a very, not only more traditional speaking, or traditional approach to a lot of things, social issues, family, etc. But also, we are a bit more of a shame-based culture. So anything that has to do with very personal matters, even like our own personal emotions that there tends to be more, we just don’t want to talk about it. So we’re, even though sexual revolution happened in the West in the United States, Asia wasn’t really there.
Now, of course, I would say in Asia, today they are, but maybe that’s because of Western influence. So in the Asian American context, we’re sort of playing catch up when it comes to the discussions about sexuality. And this is where we have even more of this disconnect. There’s always been that disconnect between the two generations, especially when you’re of different cultures coming to the west.
And so Asians, you have the parents who are immigrants, and then the kids raised here, not only just dealing with the general differences between the two generations, but then add in this very current and pretty ubiquitous conversation on sexuality for our youth, and then parents just having no clue. You know, in a sense, where their parents never talked about sex, maybe even husband and wife, they don’t even talk about it. It’s a shameful thing to talk about, or even think about it. And so there’s that big disconnect, of just silence and stigma about sex in general.
And then where sex is necessary, I have to have sex. If I don’t have sex, then not only will I be kind of shunned by the culture, and not cool, but you know, there’s also almost this impression that I could be neurotic I mean, that that’s just coming from Freud and Kinsey and all these psychologists that are actually giving this impression that no sex means not only that you’re not going to be happy, but no sex could almost mean that you could be repressive and have some maybe psychological issues.
SOLA Network: And I know, for a lot of churches, the attitude for a long time was that not talking about sex was safer. And it was almost like this deference that parents are gonna do it or the school is gonna do it or whatever it is. But in what ways have you found that not talking about it has been hurtful and detrimental to people within the church?
Christopher Yuan: It’s not talking about something that is a very common topic. And when we’re not talking about it at all in church, but the culture is talking about it on a daily, hourly basis, that creates a huge vacuum. And that vacuum is going to be filled with something.
So our youth and our young adults, as all their peers are talking about sexuality, and [our youth] say “Well, I believe in God, I believe in the Bible.” But no one’s talking about sex and sexuality, other than, “Don’t have sex.” They’re going to be looking for answers. And if they’re not getting it from the church, they’re going to be getting it from the world, from Google, from their peers, their non-Christian peers, from their teachers who are not Christian. They’re getting answers. So now though, we’re not talking about it because we don’t know what to say.
Years ago, it was we’re not talking about it because it’s shameful. But now, many Asian American churches are not talking about it, or the parents aren’t talking about it, because they don’t know where to start. But then that’s still perpetuating the problem. And then our kids are getting their answers—they’re definitely getting their answers—but in the wrong places.
SOLA Network: And speaking of where to start, in American Christianity right now. What is the debate? That is, as churches are beginning to talk about sexuality, how would you frame what the debate that’s happening there is?
Christopher Yuan: In American culture now, sexuality is almost last year’s conversation. If you don’t believe that same-sex marriage is okay, then you’re a bigot, you’re crazy, or whatever. The real conversation that’s going on now is about gender, about transgenderism, how there’s multiple genders, and gender is social constructs. That’s what the world is saying.
And then we, as the church, we’re not even addressing sexuality in its full sense and in a way that really helps people to answer their questions. And so we’re playing catch up. We’re still trying to tackle the sexuality issue of sexual identity. And we’re kind of taken by surprise and taken by storm, this whole conversation and acceptance of this concept of gender different from sex.
SOLA Network: And as you’ve been engaged in this debate, and as a Christian, reading the Bible, how would you frame this discussion biblically? Where in the Bible are you looking to? What are the through lines of the Bible that you’re looking to say, “Hey, this is a way that we can talk about these issues through the word of God?”
Christopher Yuan: I think it begins with understanding who we are as human beings in general without addressing the people in the gay community or Christians who might struggle with symptoms. We need to have a really proper understanding of who we are in light of the gospel, that all of humanity was created in the image of God. But we’re also sinners, we’re all fallen, every human being.
We’re not saying just those in the gay community are fallen. We’re not saying that only those who have opposite sex relationships, are married to a man or woman or a man-woman marriage, only they are created in the image of God. No, every human being is created in the image of God.
And I think that’s really important that we always start there—the image of God. I mean, that’s Genesis 1, you know. And so that’s a fantastic place to start, even with an unbeliever if they’re interested in knowing kind of what Christians believe. I almost always suggest starting there. Every human being is created in the image of God. They’re like, “Well people are going to hell.” Well, let me tell you, you know what the Bible says? The Bible says that every human being is created in the image of God.
And then as Christians, we also know that Genesis 3 came, the fall came. Now that conversation can be a little bit more difficult to explain to an unbeliever, not that we need to ignore it. But I definitely would start with the image of God part there and see if they have any questions about that.
But then when it when we talk about the fall, it’s helping you know, our congregations and unbelievers understand what sin means. It’s not the worst you could ever be—it’s that we’re missing the mark. That’s a pretty accurate description of what sin means in the Bible.
And so when we begin there, before even addressing the gay community or addressing the issue of sexual immorality. It’s beginning with every human being is created in the image of God with dignity, with value, but we’re all fallen, every human being, and then kind of just bringing in the gospel. Beginning with that framework: every human being created the image of God, we’re also following that. And that’s why God sent His Son Jesus Christ to die for us. That framework then really helps us to better understand sexuality.
So this individual, my neighbor who identifies as gay, he’s created in the image of God, but he’s fallen like everyone else. So it’s not like an extremely unique situation for this person. It might seem like for a Korean grandmother who is thinking, “Whoa, this lesbian couple moved in, and what do I do?” They’re created in the image of God, and they’re fallen, and therefore, like everyone else, they need Christ. I think that’s really helpful because then that kind of just humanizes everything and just pulls it down from this kind of more, because it can seem very controversial, very political, but it pulls it to the reality, of these are human beings that need Christ.
SOLA Network: And I feel like that conversely, or that shift has happened in verbiage a lot. Most churches nowadays will say that their views on homosexuality on all these different kinds of sexuality are secondary issues. But then the difficult reality is a lot of them are operating like they’re still primary. Yeah. How do you kind of talk to churches about that distinction?
Christopher Yuan: Well, I think it’s realizing you know, Scripture holds high God’s holiness, and so anything that is not holy is important and serious to God. But when we’re talking about sexual immorality, sexual immorality with people of the same sex is not viewed to be in a more grave or serious sense than sex out of marriage, adultery, then sex before marriage.
And so I think it’s important for churches to realize that we need to be consistent. Because if anything, Jesus was most harsh for the hypocrite, for those that were inconsistent, that were being very legalistic, and putting certain sins greater than others when they were justifying their pride. So I think it’s important for us to realize and sort of check our pride, and check to make sure that we’re approaching this in humility because I’m a sinner but by the grace of God go I.
SOLA Network: Most I think people that were raised in the church were raised sort of with this mentality of, here’s a list of sex actions that are good and here are ones that are bad. This is bad sex. This is good sex. What would you say is a better framework for thinking about sex than good and bad?
Christopher Yuan: I would almost say for kids growing up, they almost just get the bad, and we don’t really hear much of the good. “Just don’t ever have sex.” And then college comes and then you can get married and then maybe. But it’s just about don’t, don’t, don’t, don’t. And I think that’s just not helpful.
Even sometimes in the youth groups we have the abstinence programs, and I don’t really have so much an issue with it (we need to be careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater), but when we get our worth in [abstinence], that’s hugely problematic. Holiness is not a bad thing, but we can’t be legalistic. The Pharisees were trying to be legalistic and so “holy”—don’t do this, don’t do this, don’t do this.
But I think what is really helpful that we need to help people understand is, “What is God’s ‘Yes’?” because we can’t build a Christian life on God’s “no.” What is God’s, “Yes”? My book Holy Sexuality in the Bible is essentially me trying to communicate where a lot of books were saying the “no.” I think it’s important to say, “This is what the Bible clearly says.” We can’t try to distort it or say, “This is clearly what it says.” And I think those are important messages that we need to hear and read.
But there aren’t actually a lot of resources out there that say, “This is God’s ‘Yes’.” And it’s what I have coined holy sexuality. It’s a new term, but actually the concept is not a new concept. It’s quite simply two paths: either chastity in singleness or faithfulness in marriage. So in other words, when you are not married and you’re single, how are you going to live when it comes to sexuality? You’re going to be sexually abstinent. But if you get married and you marry someone of the opposite sex, how are you going to live? You’re going to be faithful to your spouse of the opposite sex. So that kind of lays it out really well. This is how you live chastity in singleness or faithfulness in marriage. And that’s really good news for all
SOLA Network: I was watching an episode of the show Sex Education, and there was a hilarious joke with these fundamentalist Christians. And the main character asked them, “Oh, you guys haven’t had sex?” And they replied, “Yeah, but we’ve done all the other stuff.” How do you address that issue with the growing number of young believers who view chastity as just non-vaginal intercourse?
Christopher Yuan: Well, it’s helping people to think. That’s why with my definition I said “desires and actions.” We can’t just limit “just don’t do it.” I’ll be honest—that was my perspective, years ago. I was like, well, as long as I just don’t act on it; the action is sin. But I read the Bible. I read the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5 where Jesus says, “If a man looks lustfully after a woman, he’s committed adultery,” which tells me that if I’m desiring an act, and that act is wrong and sinful, that actual desire that I have is sinful as well. And everything in between is sinful.
So I really need to watch my heart, my thoughts. If I’m desiring something or thinking of something that isn’t God’s will, then that actually is also not God’s will—it is also sin. With that being said, we also need to see how the Bible talks about temptation and differentiating, that the Bible does not talk about temptation and desire as the same thing. For example, “Jesus was tempted in every way, but he was without sin,” Hebrews says. And so being tempted is not sin.
But we shouldn’t play with it, we shouldn’t think it’s just neutral, it’s okay. We need to be really careful, as scripture talks about that we need to resist temptation, don’t fall into temptation. And so having that kind of clear distinction is really helpful. So helping people and youth to understand what holiness would look like, what chastity looks like.
I mean, chastity is just another way of kind of talking about purity. The Bible talks a lot about being pure, and that’s a good thing. But purity is not just something and holiness is not something of just my actions, but it’s also my thoughts. And so I think when we have that standard of perfection, in a sense, it’s not that we can gain that perfection, but we’re going to shoot for that holiness be holy for I am, how can anyone be holy, but we’re going to shoot for that goal.
SOLA Network: And earlier, you mentioned the idea of throwing the baby out with the bathwater, and avoiding that. In my experience as a youth pastor, and seeing my former students grow up, there’s been a lot of talk where that don’t think about sex, don’t have sex [mentality] ended up resulting in don’t desire intimacy, don’t desire friendship, don’t desire any of these things. How are you kind of going about like showing people? How do you separate these holy desires from maybe these temptations? What is that conversation?
Christopher Yuan: I think it’s really helpful. So with my definition, I talked not just about sexuality as desire or behaviors, but also showing how it’s sexual and romantic. Now, there’s a third category that I didn’t mention, and it’s platonic. So when we have platonic desires for friends that are not romantic or sexual, those are really good desires that God put in our hearts that we need to foster.
Sometimes in our Chinese culture, we’re kind of not as personal. And so, especially in context, we don’t sometimes dig deep into those relationships. But I think that that’s what God is calling us to do is to really foster those platonic relationships. I love what CS Lewis talks about in his book The Four Loves, where he talked about platonic friendships and relationships, and he says friendship is the least jealous of loves.
So for example, my best friend, he’s my accountability partner. We were roommates in Bible college. He’s such a great godly man, he loves the Lord, he’s a great pastor, he’s a great husband. I’m so honored to be friends with him. And I want everyone to know him. I’m not keeping him to myself. I’m always “Oh, you gotta meet him.” So if people go to Spokane, you got to go to church, or I’m trying to bring people in. That’s friendship.
Like, if I have a romantic desire for someone, I want to introduce them too, but it’s like, this person is mine. You know, and there’s a good holy jealousy about a husband and wife, where it’s like, we’re exclusive. We know other people, but we have an exclusive relationship that no one else has.
I think, a good distinction to help kids to know the difference between great platonic desires and relationships that we need to foster. But helping them delineate because kids can be like, I know what a sexual desire is, like, that’s easy. But then this kind of what seems to be an in-between maybe gray this romantic. Honestly, girls probably know that better than guys because they are more driven with emotions and desire to have that kind of mental contact, relational contact with someone, whereas guys can tend to be a bit more physical and visual.
So having kids understand that can be helpful to know, platonic is great. We can dig and dive into those for now, as none of you as youth are married. We need to just put those and say we’re going to save that for someone in the future.
SOLA Network: I like those definitions. In that platonic relationship, when it comes to expressions of intimacy, words of affirmation, or when it comes to specifically physical touch. There’s like a whole meme culture where they depict really repressive men, but they engage in the most homoerotic behavior, like Brazilian Jujitsu, showering together. I think part of that is this conversation is how then do we talk about appropriate physical touch within platonic relationships, especially in regards to the Bible saying, “Greet each other with a holy kiss?” So how do you kind of navigate that when especially culturally, there’s so many differences?
Christopher Yuan: Yeah, I mean, I think one thing is recognizing that how men act and how women act are often more culturally shaped. That’s why, we’re the same year, but you go from here to Eastern Europe, or you go to Asia, and how men might act is very different in some cultures.
I mean, in Asia they have the bathing. Men will go one place, women to another place, and they’ll just be no clothes on at all and walking around. And that’s normal, and some cultures that’s just not accepted. Or maybe that’s just accepted for the bathhouse, but you wouldn’t do that anywhere else. And so, I think there’s a measure of recognizing our culture and the culture that we’re in, are we in America, or United States, or even in the south, or in the north, or whatever it is, that’s one.
But also being mindful of like the other [circumstances], because unfortunately, more and more, there are people who have experienced abuse, and they’ve never told anyone. So there needs to be sensitivity. Someone might never have been hugged before growing up, and then now they’re in high school or in college, and they’re, like, have more freedom. Now they just want to hug everyone. But we need to recognize that for some people, it is not comfortable for them. And it could be because of the abuse from the past that they’ve never told anyone. So there’s this balance that we need to do.
With that being said, if there isn’t any of that bad history of abuse, I think we need to be open with saying we all need touch. I mean, there’s been the studies about babies that didn’t get touch, and how some of them did, they just, they didn’t live. So we all need touch. Kids need touch. I mean, man, if you’re a parent, a mom or dad hug your kids home, they need that they need that physical touch. And I think when we do that, then they will feel comfortable with the physical touch in friends as well.
Another thing that I would throw on there is also age. For example, I don’t feel uncomfortable with hugging people. That didn’t bother me at all growing up in high school and stuff like that. And then in my 20s, after I became a Christian, we would hug and stuff like that. As I got older, as a single man, I just realized that out of respect, I just personally thought I want to be respectful of others. I didn’t hold a distance, but you’ve probably also seen the memes of like different type of hugs you do really long hug, the side hug.
So I’m just a little bit more careful now as a single man in ministry as well, where I wouldn’t maybe do the full on all the time or frontal, sometimes the side. So I think there’s a lot of complexities. With that being said though, like I said before, we need to not be afraid of touching and realize that we all need that. And then just being sensitive about the culture, the time where I am, and then you know whether people might have any issues themselves to respect that and maybe even age and stuff when it comes to physical touch.
SOLA Network: It’s so complicated, and that’s part of what makes it really fun to talk about, right? What would be your encouragement for engaging in this conversation? In a lot of local churches, that conversation is gonna open up some things that people are going to disagree on, and people are going to maybe not like or be at odds. But what’s your hope of if we have this conversation? How will we get to know God and ourselves better?
Christopher Yuan: I think with all the conversations, not just on sexuality, we need to hold high, what is our end goal for all of us. And it is not at all behavior management. It is not just don’t sin. But it is becoming more and more like Christ. Christ always has to be our all in all, he has to be our ultimate goal, our Telos, and so I think that’s important for every person.
So whether it’s the person who wants to minister on this topic, like, we need to make sure that the unbeliever who’s my coworker, she wants nothing to do with Christ right now. And so I’m not going to keep hitting her over the head with that. I’m going to talk about Christ when I can about in my own life, not pushing it on her, but look for opportunities, or I’m just going to be Christ live Christ and live the gospel, and look for opportunity to share it, but I’m not going to just be hitting you over the head. But I know that my ultimate hope for her is that she would make Christ her Lord. And also experience conversion and then be more conformed to the likeness of Christ.
So I think that’s what I think we need to kind of view for myself, I want to become more and more like my savior. And so if we keep that always as the ultimate standard, that really takes care of not only this issue of sexuality, but gender, but everything as a whole.