Episode 8: A Pastor’s Hope for Asian American Parents featuring Pastor Jason Min of Citizens LA

Danny Kwon: Welcome to Asian American Parenting, a podcast from Rooted Ministry and the SOLA Network, where the gospel meets Asian American faith, culture, and parenting. Each episode, we explore how to raise the next generation with a strong gospel foundation in Christ while navigating the unique challenges of a cultural identity. Thanks for joining us. Let’s dive in.

Welcome to Asian American Parenting. I’m your host, Danny Kwon, from Rooted Ministry. And I’ll welcome my cohosts, Monica Kim, from SOLA Network, a psychologist and biblical counselor.

Monica Kim: Hi everyone.

Danny Kwon: And we’re really excited to have Pastor Jason Min back for a second episode. Pastor Jason Min is the senior pastor of Citizens Church in LA. And he was also a graduate of the University of Pennsylvania and a former SAT prep academy owner. And we also did find out in the first episode he used to work at the admissions office at the University of Pennsylvania. So, if you want tips for getting your kid in to the University of Pennsylvania, don’t call him. Please don’t call him.

Pastor Jason, is there anything else I missed? I really love your unique background and as we were talking about faith and academics and parenting, we thought you’d bring a unique view. But is there anything else about yourself?

Jason Min: No, thanks for having me. It’s just an honor to be here. Pastor Danny, you’re a legend in my mind. When I was out in Philly, everyone knew who Pastor Danny was. He was the youth pastor of Philadelphia. So, it’s my privilege to be here.

Danny Kwon: And I got to mention, Pastor Jason, you’re an actor. You’re in the movie Beef, and that’s awesome. And you also are super musically gifted.

Jason Min: I appreciate that. Actor would be a stretch, but I do have an IMDB account as a result of my one line in Beef. So I guess I can say that.

Danny Kwon: That’s awesome. And so we’re going to start with kind of an icebreaker, a fun question, but it’s really related to this topic of parenting and faith and academics. When you first moved from Philadelphia to LA, you were doing seminary and then full-time ministry, but you also still did some academic stuff for SAT prep and things like that. And you shared with me how you did these―either for parents or for teenagers―these seminars on SAT or getting into Ivy League schools. Could you share some stories about these kind of SAT or college prep seminars in your early days of ministry? Because you went to Penn, then you did an SAT prep academy. I know a lot of Asian American parents wanted you to come and speak to them about this stuff.

Jason Min: Yeah, I mean, when I moved to LA, I kind of thought I left that world behind. But of course, ministry doesn’t pay very well, so I needed to eat and feed my family. So I would work with different academies in the Los Angeles area who knew about my background, who asked me to come do these one-off seminars where I would speak to parents about tips, insider secrets. I was probably violating some NDAs there. Just talking to them about the changing landscape of admissions and how to create a roadmap for their kids to be able to be in a good position to gain admission to the schools they wanted to go to. And they would fly me out sometimes to Korea to do these seminars, in Gangnam, in Seoul. There was some confusion that happened, doing these seminars, because on one hand I had kind of―my views on a lot of this stuff had shifted when I went into full-time ministry, and so on one hand this had been my livelihood before, it was my field of expertise. So this was my world. But on the other hand there was always a sense in which I felt like I was kind of feeding their idolatry. And because most of these spaces weren’t explicitly Christian, and I wasn’t really talking about the intersection of academics and faith, I was speaking purely to parents who were just trying to get their kids into good schools. And so, on one hand I understood the assignment, but I always felt like a little pull inside of, if I was doing more harm than good.

Monica Kim: Thank you for sharing that. First of all, on my end, I just want to welcome you back. We’re so glad you are here again. In the first episode, when we had you, we talked about your observation and experiences, especially coming from your background. And in this one, we’re focusing a lot more in terms of your pastor heart as you think about parenting, faith, and academics. So, we’re really glad you’re here again. The first episode, we touched upon this passage, but also it was related to your perspective as a pastor who wanted so much for your folks as you shepherd them to understand academics, and all of life, under the framework or the perspective of Scripture.

And in your experience, from that pastoral heart, how have some parents used academics in ways that negatively affected their teenagers and their faith? And are there any particular difficult or horror stories you might want to share from your time as a tutor?

Jason Min: Yeah, I mean, it’s interesting because we don’t generally consider pursuing excellence in academics as sin, and I don’t want to paint in broad strokes and say that it’s sin. But if we define sin theologically as a fundamental distrust of God, and any attempt to secure meaning, fulfillment, happiness, apart from God, then what I have seen a lot are parents maybe who have put academics in that seat. Maybe more broadly, success and academics, excelling in academics, as being a pathway to career success, wealth, security, later on in life. And I think when parents do that, the danger of it is that I think for a lot of the parents I used to work with, we generally think about sin as bad behavior and our kids doing drugs or backsliding in their faith, and people don’t necessarily see sometimes an unhealthy pursuit of academics as sin as well. And so it’s more dangerous when something that the world says is really good, that is constantly positively reinforced and rewarded―those make actually the most dangerous kinds of idols. And so a lot of times, I think that from a young age these parents unknowingly and unintentionally instill that kind of idolatry in their kids, feeling like, if you don’t do well in academics, you’re not going to be able to secure a good job, secure wealth, and you’re going to disappoint your family. It’s connected to so many other things. And so, some of these poor students―they used to come in looking like they were carrying the weight of the world on their shoulders, like they were their family’s hope for a better life, they were their parents’ ticket to the American dream. And so, that’s always really unfortunate and really sad to see.

Danny Kwon: On the flip side, as a pastor now, and even in the past as a tutor, have you seen parents use academics in a positive way that’s supported spiritual growth and faith in their children? And maybe share some examples for the parents who are listening.

Jason Min: I think it’s just that it’s not that pursuing excellence in academics is bad. I think it’s putting that in its proper place. And I have seen parents approach kind of how they talk to their kids about academics from the perspective less of success and more from the perspective of stewardship. So, this idea that, hey, maybe the way you’re thinking about this is not too big, but maybe it’s too small. And so, teaching their kids from a young age, how are you handling that which God has given you―opportunities, gifts, the people in your life, responsibilities? And kind of teaching them these really important kingdom principles, through the way they approach academics, I think is really healthy. And I think it can actually do a lot of good. I always say that I think sometimes we use our Christianity as an excuse for mediocrity. And I always want to tell even our people, hey, pursuing excellence is not in and of itself, a bad thing. When you read the book of Daniel, he wasn’t just a government official; he was the best government official. And actually, his excellence was a part of how he was able to be such a light while living as an exile in Babylon, and so I think there is actually a lot of really important kingdom principles that I’ve seen parents instill in their kids.

I think also when it comes to academics, how parents walk with their kids through their academic journey, I think are all opportunities for them to model and embody the heart of God. I think about what A.W. Tozer said when he said, what we believe about God is the most important thing about us. And if you have parents who approach academics in a very specific way, where it’s all about the achievement, performance, the accomplishment, getting the grade, that is going to be, whether we know it or not, that is going to be shaping our kids’ view of God. But I have seen parents use their kids’ academic journey as an opportunity to teach them things, support them, walk with them, help them process even failure, teach them the importance of integrity and honesty. So it’s not just about getting the A, we want you to do it the right way. And all of these things are really important kingdom principles that I think come into play later on.

Monica Kim: I really appreciated how you were talking about, pursuing excellence is not a sin in itself, especially as we think about, where is it in its place in terms of value or life perspectives. And stewardship―you were talking about stewardship. Every good and perfect gift comes from God; how do you steward the gifts. You did touch upon some practical ways parents can balance, help their children to understand faith and academics, academics in light of faith.

Are there any other practical ways that you would guide or you would want parents to be able to teach their children how to do that, as they’re growing up?

Jason Min: Yeah, I mean, one of the best pieces of practical parenting advice I got when I was a―when my kids were really young―was from one of my mentors, who told me―I mean, I asked him, because both his kids were walking with the Lord, even in their early years. And one of the things he said was, “I made it a point from the moment they were born to just teach them as many things as possible. So, you know, like anything: if it was how to ride a bike, I wanted to be the one to teach them how to ride a bike, fixing something, if they need help with their math problem, I want to be the one to teach them that.” And one of the things he was saying was, a five-year-old child may not have questions yet about faith. Maybe some of them do. They may want to know how to spell the word “cat.” And so, he was like, “but if you teach them enough, you kind of take on the role as teacher in their life, like when I have a question about anything, I can go to Dad or Mom about it.” And one of the things he said was that when they got older, and they started actually navigating faith and started navigating questions about God, the first person they naturally turned to were their parents because they had gotten used to just going to their parents to talk about their questions, talk about difficult things.

And so, the beauty, I think, of our generation of parents that maybe our parents, not a lot of our parents could not do, was that there was a lot that our parents didn’t know in terms of American culture, how to live in American society, a lot of us were latchkey kids because our parents were busy at work. But I think at least in our generation, we have much more of a capacity to teach our kids so much more. And so even if it’s small things, I would encourage parents to kind of even treat our relationship with our kids as potential, almost like, breeding grounds for us to have bigger conversations around faith later on. And I think that’s a really powerful relationship that we should steward well.

Danny Kwon: Yeah. I mean, in the second gen church and third generation church, we’re still used to being―we grew up with youth group being separate because of language. And now that I’ve become a parent, and you’ve become a parent, and the parents we minister to, they’re just so used to our teenagers being raised by the youth pastor. And faith conversations―because of language, the first generation church, the youth kids when to the youth group, and parents went to the adult worship, and so faith was kind of “delegated” to the youth pastor. But I guess you’re kind of hinting at a model where parents take a more active role in discipleship.

Jason Min: Yeah. And not only, I think, and just like how discipleship is not just taught, it’s modeled, I do think that’s a really important piece for parents to think through. Not only do we teach our kids, but I do think, probably much more than we think, our kids are watching us. As they say, discipleship is more caught than taught. And so, I think in the same way, so much of how we approach our responsibilities at work, or even with people, I think unbeknownst to us, are impacting how our kids approach their responsibilities, their primary responsibility at that time, which might be as a student. Yeah, things like integrity, are you on time, are you responsible, all of these things are really important.

Monica Kim: One angle I just wanted to highlight as you talked about teaching is that in an Asian context, oftentimes that hierarchy of, you just do as I say, often comes through, versus, hey, I’m going to walk alongside you and teach, and we’re going to have this context in which you can ask questions, and I’m going to be available to answer as I continue to teach you. That’s a little bit of a different nuance. Even though “teaching” as a parent is not foreign to the Asian American or Asian context, the way in which it’s done often is from that hierarchy of filial piety and a command or demand. Even if parents don’t say it as that, just the pressure, the demand and the pressure, can be experienced from that kind of piety, kind of in context. So I appreciate hearing about, in contrast, the nuance of teaching, almost like modeling how Jesus taught.

Jason Min: That’s good.

Monica Kim: Being with his disciples, and being able to have them ask questions. So I appreciate you bringing out that practical nuance.

Jason Min: That’s really good. Yeah.

Danny Kwon: So, Jason, now that you’re just doing ministry, you’re no longer doing SAT tutoring or SAT business, SAT academy, as you serve your local church and just the broader church, you’re emerging as one of the great leaders in the Asian American church. As our podcast listeners think about academics and faith and parenting, are there any final messages you would like to share with Asian American parents about faith, academics, and parenting, maybe some hopes you see for them, for the future and present?

Jason Min: Yeah. I guess, I think the first thing I’d want to say more explicitly―I think when it comes to parenting podcasts and, there is I think, even in the way that Asian American parents consume content like this, can be from the perspective of, okay, now I’m going to get all these things, and now I have to be this perfect parent. And I do want to say explicitly, and something that I’m trying to preach against, is that the way that the gospel frees us is even as parents, we have nothing left to prove. We’re gonna make mistakes, and we’re gonna need to depend on the grace of God. And so, I do want to first say that because I think that’s a really important piece even in how we parent our kids and how we navigate this thing.

I guess, if I could say maybe some practical things for parents, and I would kind of broaden it from just faith and academics, to faith and all the things that I think they want for their children, academics being one of them, but we talked about it in the earlier podcast, like extracurriculars. And the story that really comes to mind is the story of Mary and the alabaster box. And it’s interesting, like back then, alabaster boxes often were handed down as family heirlooms. It was to the daughter and it was obviously furnished with expensive oil, and it was kind of their entire identity was wrapped up in what was in that alabaster box. And I feel like our parents handed us an alabaster box, and I feel like this generation of parents―we basically want to furnish our kids with the best alabaster boxes full of the most expensive oil. And again, these are good desires. I think when I talk to parents, a lot of the parents in my community, there is this general sense of, I just want to give my kids everything. I want to give them everything that I didn’t have. I want to provide them with a life of comfort, I don’t want them to struggle later. I want to set them up with opportunities and resources to help them succeed in life. And I think this is all good. There’s nothing wrong with that.

But if I could exhort our parents, it is that I think that the best thing we can do for our kids is actually to model for them what it means to be a box-breaker―to show them a life completely surrendered to Jesus, to show them what it means to live every day in the reality of the love of God. And I think Arthur Brooks was just on a podcast recently, where he talked about, that the biggest indicator of whether or not a child would develop a vibrant relationship with God, is if they saw the most important person in their life worshipping, or the most powerful person in their life worshipping. For a lot of children, it’s their parents.

And so, I don’t want to deny the importance of academics. I don’t want to deny the importance of pursuing excellence and wanting the best for our kids. And this is how the world works. It is, in many ways, we’re subject to the water that we’re swimming in a lot of times. But I think actually the most countercultural, revolutionary thing we can do as parents is actually to show them a life that’s completely, again, completely surrendered to Jesus. And then see how that reframes everything else, and use that as the starting point from which we talk about academics and success and future and security and things like that. And I think it would have huge ripple effects, not just for our kids, but even for their kids.

Danny Kwon: Yeah, yeah. I wanna come to your church.

Jason Min: Any time. Please come.

Danny Kwon: Beautiful. Yeah, Pastor Jason, thank you for coming on to the podcast and really, with your background―UPenn graduate, Harvard grad school graduate, and running a former SAT academy, but now a pastor―really, your perspective is very unique and important, and we appreciate your voice. And our listeners, we thank you for listening. May we embrace the hope and joy of the gospel, and believe that it’s true, powerful, and transformative. Thanks for listening to Asian American Parenting. See you next time.

We hope that you have enjoyed this podcast. For more resources, visit the show notes. See you next time.