Delve into the world of healing shame and rediscovering one’s true self with pastor and author, Ken Shigematsu. His recently published book, “Now I Become Myself: How Deep Grace Heals our Shame and Restores our True Self,” explores the profound impact of shame and how embracing God’s love can lead to personal transformation.
Throughout this conversation with SOLA editorial curator Aaron Lee, Pastor Ken shares his journey, his experiences as an Asian Canadian, and the wisdom he has gained in his pursuit of beauty and joy. We hope this interview is a source of hope and inspiration as we become our truest self in light of God’s love.
Editor’s Note: Below is a lightly edited automated transcript of their conversation. There may be typos or grammatical errors.
Aaron Lee: Hi, everyone, this is Aaron for SOLA Network. Today I am here with pastor and author Ken Shigematsu. Pastor Ken wrote this book: Now I Become Myself: How Deep Grace Heals our Shame and Restores our True Self. Pastor Ken, thank you for coming on to talk about your book. Can you give us a brief introduction about yourself and about your book?
Ken Shigematsu: Sure. Thanks, Aaron. It’s really a pleasure to be with you and your viewers and listeners. I’m originally from Japan, but spent most of my life here in North America. Growing up mostly in Metro Vancouver, I did some schooling in the Chicago area, in the Boston area, and was actually living in Southern California for a brief time involved in a church plant and doing some writing for one of the local newspapers. And then I came up here to Vancouver. I’ve been serving as a pastor here in the city since 1996.
Aaron Lee: Wow. How did writing this book come about?
Ken Shigematsu: Well, I’ve observed that the experience of shame isn’t just confined to people who’ve been through abuse or trauma. But people who are very successful, in a worldly sense, also struggle with this feeling that they’re not quite enough. And so I wanted to explore this theme and also see how spiritual practices and an experience of God’s love — not just a head knowledge of God’s love, but a deep personal experience of God’s love — could heal a person from shame, and enable them to live from what Thomas Merton describes as their truest self.
Aaron Lee: You mentioned shame and leaders, particularly. Would you please give us a brief rundown on your theology of shame, and how you address it in the book? And you also talked about covering ourselves, which I found to be super helpful. Could you talk about how that relates to ministry endeavors? I think that was a brilliant way to open the book. It’s rather applicable, I think.
Ken Shigematsu: Yeah, I don’t know if it’s just unique to leaders. But we, who lead, I think, carry a lot of weight and experience quite a bit of stress. And so we tend to be prone to feelings that we’re not quite enough. It’s been a long time since I’ve been a student, but for many years I had a dream that I was about to take an exam in math or in French, that I was totally unprepared for. In this dream, I’m feeling this anxiety that my grades are just going to sink through the floor. I don’t have that dream as often these days. But I have another dream, I have a dream that I’m about to speak somewhere, give a talk, or preach. And I have no idea what I’m going to say. So I reach for a piece of paper, scratch out an outline, and get up in front of a group of people. I look down, and all I see is a number sign, an exclamation mark, a greater than sign, the number three, and I have no idea what these symbols are supposed to trigger in my memory. And someone gets up in the auditorium and walks out, other people follow them. And soon the space is empty.
And what these dreams are telling me is that at a subconscious level, as a human being, as a leader — I don’t know if it’s unique to being a leader, I don’t think so — but I have a fear of not being enough, or being deficient in some way. And the Bible and social sciences have a name for this: shame. And shame originates, as we who believe in the Scriptures know, in the Garden of Eden. Adam and Eve originally didn’t experience the emotion of shame. They were naked and without shame according to Genesis 2. But then the devil, the one who didn’t feel like he was quite enough, whispered in their ear: if you will only turn from God, you’ll be so much more, you’ll be fulfilled and free. And Adam and Eve turned from God, they literally and figuratively bit, and they don’t become more fulfilled and free, they don’t become a better version of themselves. They feel like something has been taken from them, that something is missing. And so they cover themselves with fig leaves, they hide in the bushes.
And because we experience shame, we also have this tendency to try and cover ourselves with some kind of fig leaf or hide in some way. Shame causes us either to go small and shrink back – or fine, go big – in order to prove that we are worthy, and that we are valid in some way. And Thomas Merton, the brilliant writer in spiritual life, said that we human beings tend to feel invisible. And so we wrap ourselves in bandages of achievement, or material possessions, or pleasures, or education, or building a reputation, so that we will be seen as special. And when we try to prove that we are worthy or special by what we do, what we achieve, what we have, what we experience, or by how others view us – Martin says we’re living from the false self. We’re projecting an image of ourselves. And the way to overcome that, as I write about in the book, is to have this deep experience of God’s love.
Aaron Lee: I think that it’s very well thought out, really comprehensive, and quite clear — the way that you frame shame in this way. I especially like how you relate it to pastors and leaders, like I mentioned before. Now, one of the sections in your book, it actually makes a point to confess, in terms of combating shame. Can you talk about this a little bit more? And can you relate it to the importance of pastors and husbands and high achievers and leader-type of people? Because I’ll be honest, I don’t know if that happens.
Ken Shigematsu: Aaron, confession is a very counterintuitive kind of practice. So when we’re feeling shame, or guilt or regret, the last thing we probably want to do – especially if we’re trying to create a certain image of ourselves as a person – is confess that to someone else. But it can be powerfully healing and liberating. Brene Brown, the social scientist who specializes in shame research, points out that if you put shame in a petri dish and want to see that shame grow exponentially – just add the elements of secrecy, silence, and judgment. But if you want that shame to be extinguished, to evaporate, just add the element of empathy, someone’s empathetic response.
And I know that a number of your listeners and viewers are pastors. And if you’re a pastor out there, you know that even though people may perceive us as godly, we are not above envying others, and comparing ourselves, and competing with others. I tend to be a competitive person, by nature. And so this morning, I went for a swim. I like to do it in the mornings, and I’m not an especially fast swimmer. But if I’m about to reach the wall, and I see someone about to pass me in the other lane, I tend to speed up to the wall first. If I can only touch the wall before that guy or that woman, I feel a little better about myself. And I can compare myself to other pastors who seem to be more successful, or who seem to be more creatively fruitful than me. And so in the book I wrote about how we can overcome those envious comparisons and live with more contentment and joy.
Aaron Lee: Not only do you talk about confessing, but you talk about reframing shame. Now, I think that when people talk about this, they can mean different things. Can you explain what you mean by reframing shame?
Ken Shigematsu: Yeah, so I write about confession in the book and how powerful of a practice it is. And I actually share this sort of embarrassing experience from way back when I was a student. And I described how one summer on summer break, I went on a trip. And I met someone that I was powerfully attracted to. And there was a lot of chemistry between us, at least on my end. But a relationship of any kind was out of bounds because she was in a relationship with someone else, and I was intending to initiate a relationship with someone back home. But one night, we met up in a public place. And we were on a sidewalk, and we spontaneously started kissing and making out a little. We were in a public place, so there were some sort of natural restraints in place. Some people may think it’s not such a big deal. But I had violated my code and my conscience, so I was feeling quite a bit of guilt and shame. And not long afterwards, I confessed that to a trusted Christian friend of mine, and he was disappointed. But he teared up but he said, “Ken, I love you.” And in that experience of confession, I felt an enormous weight, a burden, had fallen off of my shoulders. And I just, it just felt so, so free.
When we confess something, whether we’re asking as a father or in some other role that we feel shame or guilt over, and then the person that we talked to, whether it’s a trusted friend, a pastor, a spiritual director, counselor, whoever, says in effect, “I’m not going anywhere” or “Welcome to the human race,” that gives us a window into how high, and how deep and how wide and how long is God’s love for us in Christ. And so when we’ve done something that we feel guilty about or ashamed of, the last thing we want to do, in most cases, is to confess that. But when we confess something to someone who’s trustworthy, it can be so freeing, so liberating.
Aaron Lee: Yeah. I want to keep talking about this a little bit. So that story — it hit me not because of the content, but because you were willing to share something that you could possibly find shameful as a pastor like yourself. Was it hard for you to put that down into words and to get it into the book?
Ken Shigematsu: Yeah, in some ways it was. And this is sort of my rule of thumb. First of all, if I’ve worked through an experience, I’m willing to share it. I’m also willing to share something if I feel that it might be helpful for someone else. So it’s not so much about sort of experiencing catharsis on my end, I think. But if it can serve someone else, in a similar situation, I don’t mind being vulnerable and writing or speaking about that.
And Aaron, I’ve meandered a little bit, but you talked about a reframing that can occur through a confession. So I happened to be in Southern California, years later. And I dropped by… I think it was Fuller Seminary. There was a professor of leadership at the time named Bobby Clinton, who has written on the development of leaders, especially in vocational ministry. And so even though it had happened years before, I shared this experience with Bobby Clinton, and he sort of paused. I write about this in the book, I don’t mention Bobby Clinton’s name. And he said, “You know, a failure at this level, may be really beneficial for you, because it wasn’t catastrophic.It was a failure, but it wasn’t catastrophic. And it can serve as a kind of warning for you to avoid something more serious in terms of a breach in the future. So God can really redeem this.” So confessing that to Bobby Clinton years later helped reframe the failure as an opportunity to learn and to grow, and hopefully avoid something more serious in the future.
Aaron Lee: I think that’s really helpful. I want to circle back a little bit too. You talked about comparison, maybe being envious, maybe jealous with others. How do you see that relationship between envy and shame and comparing as a pastor, maybe even as an author?
Ken Shigematsu: Envy and shame are our close cousins. Envy says that someone has it better than me. Shame says someone is better than me. Those are closely related. And, you know, as we know, Aaron, and as our friends and the folks listening to who are pastors, as I alluded to earlier, pastors are not over or above the possibility of experiencing envy and jealousy. I certainly am not. And so you asked me to weigh in, as a pastor and as an author. There was an author that I didn’t know personally, but I sort of knew about him from afar, also in serving as a pastor. And I felt like he was so creative and so prolific that I envied his output. And I felt that maybe a good response would be to do something for him. I didn’t know him. So what can I do?
So I read his books, and then gave him a five star review. And it was a great book and so I could do that honestly. So I find that if I envy someone, if I can do something for them, pray for them, that really helps. Bonhoeffer said in life together, if you’re in a relationship with someone who seems difficult to you, if you pray for them, that person who was previously a kind of enemy to you, becomes a brother or sister. They take on the countenance of Christ. So that helps us overcome envy. And then if you can get to know someone, that really helps as well.
It was Samuel Johnson, who struggled a lot with envy. And he came to the realization that the world is so full of misery, that no one is to be envied. So there was a pastor that I knew of years ago who I had become close friends with. And he’s very successful on lots of different levels. But as I got to know him, I learned some things in his life. I won’t go into detail on those in this conversation. Had some great pain and quite a bit of suffering. And I realized that though he had many admirable qualities, he was not to be envied. And every person is either suffering or is close to someone who is and so they’re not to be envied.
Aaron Lee: Yeah, I love that. I love that actionable response. I feel like what you’re saying is that, hey, if you start to feel this way, if you can reach out and do something for that person, do something helpful. Pray for the person, for sure, that can help combat your shame and envy and all those other feelings. Is that correct?
Ken Shigematsu: Yeah, it certainly helps. You know, when I wrote that five star review, and when I hit submit, I just felt lighter and freer. It’s very counterintuitive. When we envy someone we might want to try and drag them down. But if we can love them, serve them, bless them in some way — as counterintuitive as it sounds — we are blessed and set free.
Aaron Lee: I think that’s super hopeful. I think that’s a very positive outlook. A very Christian outlook, I should say, like Christ. Your book is hopeful. Can you talk about beauty and joy? Because you make mention of those towards the end of the book. How do you pursue beauty and joy with your busy schedule?
Ken Shigematsu: You’re from California, right? I’ll share a story or a research finding from Stanford, which I think is north of you. An experiment was done at Stanford where research participants were asked to go on a 90 minute walk. Half the group was asked to walk one of the busiest streets in Silicon Valley. The other half of the group was asked to walk a beautiful, scenic, wooded trail near the campus. After their 90 minute walks, each research participant was put into an FMRI machine. And the scan showed that for those who walked the busy street, in Silicon Valley, that their brains were defaulting to experiencing regret over something in the past, or anxiety about something in the future. Their brains were just ruminating with worry. But the scans also showed that those who walked the beautiful, scenic, wooded trail near the university campus, that the part of their brain associated with feeling anxiety, self criticism, and depression had actually gone quiet.
The experience of shame involves self analysis, self critique, self condemnation, which are primarily left brain activities. When we’re exposed to beauty that lights up the right hemisphere of our brain, literally leaving less room for shame to work. And so one of the ways that we can experience peace, peace with God, peace with ourselves and our world, is to expose ourselves to beautiful places, things, and beautiful people. I don’t mean that in a superficial sense, but in a spiritual sense. And so it might mean for me… every morning I walk our golden retriever down a wooded street not far from our home. It’s a beautiful street. And that awakens me to something of God’s love and wonder and creativity. Other people might want to put themselves before a beautiful work of art each day or listen to gorgeous music. But beauty can become a window into God’s love for us, and into joy.
Aaron Lee: You’re telling me I don’t need to bask in my shame.
Ken Shigematsu: Right. Yeah, and that there are portals to enjoy and a sense of gratitude. Psychologists tell us that about 50% of a person’s subjective sense of happiness is likely based on what they call a set point of happiness, their temperament and character. And about 10% of their happiness is going to be shaped by circumstances. But a whopping 40% of our subjective experience of happiness and joy comes from intentional activity. And so whether it’s putting yourself on a pathway of beauty, or a gratitude exercise, or spending time with people we love and who love us, that can help us experience more of the joy of the Lord, which is our strength.
Aaron Lee: Yeah. Thank you, Pastor Ken. I have one more question. I want to talk to you about being Asian Canadian. Did that influence shame in your life, and how you wrote this book? Even just what you experienced as a pastor, I want to hear how your ethnicity or your identity plays a part, if at all?
Ken Shigematsu: For sure. So as I write about in the book, as a teenager, I was quite rebellious. I got into shoplifting, and joyriding, and some small-time drug dealing. I was busted. I was arrested, shoplifting. And my parents came to Kmart to pick me up, I was 14 years old or so. And afterwards, my mom and dad took me to my room in our home and had me kneel, Asian-style. So I may look Asian, but I’m not very flexible. And sort of kneeling, Asian-style has always been difficult for me. And my dad struck me a couple of times, which was very common for immigrant parents at the time as a means of discipline. So that was fine and probably timely. But I remember my dad speaking to me about how I had brought shame on him, on my mom, on our family. I felt shame in that moment. A lot of people today say shame is completely destructive. But when we experience shame, short term, it can be a motivator for us to live in a different kind of way. And it wasn’t long after that I became truly open to a new path of life, as I met Christ. And so that’s one way that shame has shaped me.
Let me offer another way. You know, some years ago, a couple of authors from the United States came up to Vancouver to our church. They looked around and they commented, “We’ve never seen a church as diverse as this one in the United States.” Churches often are racially segregated. And they interviewed me for a chapter in their book. And they said, “How did you move from this church, which we understand, used to be all white and mostly white Anglo Saxon, senior citizens… to becoming so diverse, racially, and intergenerational?” And they said, “What was your plan? What was your strategy?” And I said, you know, I didn’t have much of a conscious strategy. The authors then asked me the question, “Well, tell us a little bit about your life story.” And I explained that I was born in Japan. Born in Tokyo. And when I was young, we moved briefly to New York City, and then for five years to London, England, and then to Vancouver, Canada. And then I went off to college in the Chicago area, went back to Japan to work in the corporate world for the Sony Corporation. I went to the Boston area to go to seminary, went to Southern California to help start this new church, and then back to Vancouver. And then the author said, “That’s a lot of different places where you’ve lived with. Where do you feel at home?” And you know, honestly, I’ve never really felt that home anywhere. I was raised by loving parents, loving family. So I don’t mean to suggest that I’m ungrateful, but I’ve never really felt that home anywhere, including Japan, including Vancouver. And then the author said, “This is what we think you’re doing. Because you have never felt at home anywhere, you have set a table, where you hope that everyone feels welcome, especially those who have not felt at home anywhere.” I think that was accurate and true. And it came out of my experience of being a minority, an Asian in Canada. So that, being of Japanese ancestry, being of Asian ancestry, has certainly shaped my life identity and ministry.
Aaron Lee: Pastor Ken, thank you so much for your time. Thank you for your book. And thanks for sharing a little bit personally, too. I was blessed by your book. I think that this interview will be a blessing for others as well. Thank you so much.
Ken Shigematsu: Yeah. Thanks, Aaron. Great to be with you and with your friends.
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