The relationship between immigrant and second-generation churches has—to put it lightly— been complex. Language and cultural barriers make things lead to misunderstandings and disagreements. Many churches have stories of conflicts over vision, worship times, and lack of parking.
But it is possible for first and second-generation churches to worship together. At SOLA Network, we want to highlight the stories that show us new ways to approach old problems. We want to encourage churches and leaders to think differently about “the way things are” and find ways to pursue the kingdom of God together.
We are proud to present an interview that Steve Chang, SOLA Council chairman, conducted with Pastor Paul Kim and Pastor John Cha of Open Door Presbyterian Church in Herndon. Pastor Paul Kim is the lead pastor of the Korean-speaking Congregation, while Pastor John Cha was the previous lead pastor of the English-speaking Congregation and is now the Congregational Care pastor.
In their wide-ranging conversation, the group discusses the journey ODPC made in becoming “1 Vision, 2 Households, 1 Family.” They talk about:
- How the leaders of both congregations interact regularly
- How the two lead pastors share power
- Giving the English-speaking congregation the 9:30am worship slot
- Their mission as a church
- How to appreciate what the other congregation is doing
- Plans for the future of the church
We hope you are encouraged by their conversation. For more on Open Door Presbyterian Church, check out our previous interview with John Cha, in which he discusses in more detail how their church structure came to be.
Watch the video below, view it on YouTube, or listen to it in our Podcasts feed.
Editor’s Note: Below is a lightly edited automated transcript of their conversation. There may be typos or grammatical errors.
Pastor Steve Chang: Okay. So I’m here today with Pastor Paul Kim and Pastor John Cha from Open Door Presbyterian Church and so glad to be here. Thank you for spending the time, Pastor Paul and Pastor John.
Pastor John Cha: Yeah. Thank you for having us.
Pastor Paul Kim: Thank you for inviting us.
Pastor Steve Chang: Pastor Paul, we’ll start with you. I think a lot of people know and we already have an article up on our website, but can you give us a brief history of the ODPC?
Pastor Paul Kim: Well, ODPC was founded in 1984. And I became a senior pastor in 1992. So I’ve been here 32 years. Pastor John Cha’s father founded this church in 1984. And I came here actually, after he passed away, a friend of mine was a senior pastor, but he resigned after slightly over one year. And then he happened to go to a Nam Seoul Church in Seoul. Yeah. I came here as kind of a two year contract.
And just I was invited to lay some foundation for their next generation back then it was more likely college and very few young adult ministry for foundation because I was not really thought that I was according to the immigrant church. Because I have a very similar background like you I came US little bit later age. But I went last part of my high school and college. I’m also trained engineer. And then I wanted to change it for my theological training for MDiv and ThM and did most of the DMin but I didn’t finish that.
So then I came out and after two year, make long story short, that senior pastor was supposed to come cannot come. So they asked me to consider to be a senior pastor. And I became a senior pastor. And I told my elders that, you know, one of the reason, actually, only reason that I will stay with immigrant first generation church is because I like to build interdependent church. Back then we just to use that, but we didn’t know what is going to look like but just the two generation coexisting. So that was how we started. And PJ, when did you come on board?
Pastor John Cha: I came in 1996.
Pastor Paul Kim: 1996. So we had some hiccups. And then PJ, Pastor John, joined us and he’s been with us many years. And Pastor John has a very interesting history because he’s been Head Pastor, Senior Pastor of, we call it EC, English Congregation, twice. But he’s now a different pastor. Why don’t you explain that?
Pastor John Cha: Yeah, so I’m now the Congregational Care Pastor. So because I have about 20 plus years of relationship with our congregation. So I’m serving in that capacity.
But as Pastor Paul shared, it was the 1990s, in the 90s, when Pastor Paul, in ‘96, where he was sharing more about this vision. But as he also shared, we did not know. If you asked us exactly what it would look like, we would not be able to give an answer. But one of the things I think Pastor Paul really emphasized and just happened in our staff was that relationship building was the priority.
So at that time, our church staff of the entire church was five people. We had meals every single day. We did not talk about ministry. We just just caught up with each other. And I think it was to the point where all five of us could almost like read each other’s minds in terms of ministry and like, expectations. I think that was very, very helpful.
Pastor Paul was very gracious to me as a young 20 some year old pastor. Always had an open door policy for me to come in. There’s a funeral coming up. How do you preside over a funeral, there’s a conflict among my leaders, how do you deal with that? And that was very key. And that happened for about 10 years before we even really moved towards entered, made any concrete changes with interdependence.
Pastor Paul Kim: So when we started actually, one of the reason that, you know, Young Nak and those large churches not succeeding with the interdependent model is because they’re creating congregations too large. So when we started, this was very small church. We are congregation, all together with the children. I think we’re under 500. So it was very small church. But we had a vision of building future church together. And then also we are urgency.
Because, you know, you mentioned the Toronto Young Nak, Min Ho’s good friend of mine. So we are the one of the those of few 1.5 generation pastors who dreamed about this because our origins. We thought back then 30 years ago, if we don’t do anything, more than 60%, or even more so of Korean American church will shut down. But you know, that what happened with the IMF and millions of the Koreans came in. Non-family related immigration, right, so that’s how that Korean American churches survive and so far. So you know, God can do a lot of miraculous things, but if it didn’t happen, we knew that we had that urgency. And then I have a great heart for immigrant church because I became a Christian through the immigrant church. So that’s how we started.
Pastor Steve Chang: Well, thank you so much. And yeah, you know, when I talk a lot of EM pastors and, and then others as well, just congregants, the reputation, Pastor Paul, that that precedes you are very favorable. And, it’s not often that people say I want to work in a church like that, or in a staff like that. So I think Pastor John, what you’re saying it’s, it still resonates with a lot of people. Now, I want to be precise, is your church, one church with two congregations or two churches on one campus? So is that because you you said in the article a few years ago that it’s particularized and you know, in church polity that means to a legal entity, so can you explain?
Pastor John Cha: Yeah, so I’ll share and then Pastor Paul, you could add more if I’m missing anything. So we are legally one entity. We are Open Door Presbyterian Church. We do consist of two congregations. So we have ODPCKC, Korean speaking congregation, ODPCEC, English speaking congregation. Everything in terms of the IRS Code, everything we are registered as one church. We own the property together. And we actually put this in our bylaws, if either congregation leaves, they surrender the property. So we do not fight over the property, this is ours or yours. They just will leave the property.
We do have two sets of, just to go a little bit more into our organization, we do have two sets of staff, KC and EC, but we meet jointly. We have two sets of elders, KC and EC, but every month we meet together, jointly to cover joint events, where matters and to collaborate. We have two sets of budgets. But we also have a joint budget, where we pay together for the support together for ministries that impact both.
But having said that, we also have a senior pastor who is the whoever is the pastor of the larger congregation is the senior pastor and they’re ultimately the ones who the one who kind of is like the chairperson, chairman of everything. Because if you have just two equals in every single sense it can lead to just conflict or just uncertainty. But to have one person ultimately call the shot that…
Pastor Paul Kim: From the get go, we didn’t have this one. It took us 25 years plus also to get here. So when we started, we didn’t have English Congregation, didn’t have elder board for a long time. When was the first time you guys installed the elders?
Pastor John Cha: About 2007.
Pastor Paul Kim: 2007 right? But we respected EC Ministry Leaders, almost like elders. So I had an annual elder board retreat with a Korean side congregation elders. We invited English side leaders. And we respectfully and have a relationship together. So we have a long history and plus even the budget. In the beginning, we are one budget. So both congregation made their budget for the upcoming year. But whatever income came in, we’re just one pot, one account.
But we get to the point that it was not effective. So we decided to have what happened, we decided to have a separate bank account. I separate it out of the vault. And but we do have all that details written and by law, for the you know, after. I’m retiring, you know, one and a half years. So I’m 64 years old. So I’ve been preparing that, how are we going to decide next, the senior pastor, or in the future if English Congregation become larger congregation then what happens?
So we have all that written in the law that larger congregation, leading pastor is chairperson. So you know, like, when relationship goes, well, that’s not a problem. But you have to have someone who can make, you know, direction and point and so that’s how we decide.
Pastor Steve Chang: Okay. That’s helpful. But then. So what confused me was, when you said in the interview three years ago, Pastor John, you were particularized. Now, what denomination are you?
Pastor John Cha: So in practice, we would be most in tune with PCA. But we are not part of a denomination. We’re independent presbyterian.
Pastor Paul Kim: We were actually part of the PCA. And then, when I got invited, they temporarily out of that, I don’t know the word is the term in English, but they kind of froze their relationship with the PCA so that they can broaden the invitation base for the senior pastor and out from only, you know, their denomination, but they claim by somebody else, that’s how I came in.
And after that, we were gonna rejoin them, but because of our vision. I don’t know where they are now, because I know some Anglo you know, friends who’s in PCA, who’s been asking that, join them again. But I told them that you guys do not understand the ethnic churches situation. We need to have two different elder board and but still we can work together, which they never has done that. So because of that, we couldn’t join the, any denomination. So we decided to stay independent. I know that is kind of an oxymoron. Isn’t it? Like Presbyterian church without presbytery. But in practice and theology, we are in line with PCA.
Pastor Steve Chang: Okay. Okay, so that that helps me because when, when Pastor Cha, you said that you were particularized. It wasn’t particularized within a presbytery.
Pastor John Cha: No.
Pastor Steve Chang: Denominational particularized. But it is within your own internal framework. We’re recognizing the EC as their own kind of a body, that they can make decisions, etc, etc. It’s, I guess it would be like if you had a home, and your child got married. And so okay, we’re going to on the same land, we’re going to have two homes and we’re going to recognize you as the head of your own household that we’re going to live in, you know.
Pastor John Cha: Yes, Pastor Steve. And I apologize for that confusion with that language. But it is just like you said, actually, when our EC did become much more independent with our own elders and with our own budget, and everything, that what you just shared is the narrative we used, right? Because we knew that the KC side and the elders were actually experiencing that within their own homes. Because at that time, their kids were getting married. And were moving away, but not too far away, because they wanted to still be together. And we borrowed that analogy and said, hey, the EC, we’re so grateful that we’ve grown under the care of the KC, now we are two congregations, still one church, one family, one vision. But how we practice that and how we’re going to pursue that vision is going to be, we’re going to have our own generational context, to be able to pursue that. And the KC blessed us, and so we’re still together. But we do have a lot more autonomy and freedom to express it uniquely to who we are as a congregation.
Pastor Steve Chang: Now, I have so many, Pastor John, you seem like an organizational person, like you think, strategically, organizationally, is that accurate?
Pastor John Cha: Only because I have to, being in this position, but naturally, I’m much more of a relational, just, yeah, but I could, I do think of it that way.
Pastor Steve Chang: How about you, Pastor Paul, is it because of your engineering background that you think that way?
Pastor Paul Kim: I am actually. Totally organizationally oriented. So 30 years ago, we are friends like that Minho and Peter Chai and all we talked about this dream. But theory was out there. But nobody was really practicing. So or maybe they did but they failed. So we practiced long enough to develop all the system. Having what I have in my mind is that this is a sample I don’t think this is the every way everybody has to do it. But at least that they can benchmark our church. And we like to set a very good example. And good sample.
So but you know, like when we started, we only had a one building. Yeah, but Lord’s been very gracious. We have a large campus, we have a 16 acre land. So but even that, you know, you mentioned that if you join the with your previous Korean congregation, you will have always afternoon service. But us, we didn’t do that. We carved out prime time on Sunday to English Congregation meet in our main sanctuary.
Pastor John Cha: I believe we had the 9:30am slot with the main sanctuary for us, which said a lot about the Korean side.
Pastor Paul Kim: Back then they were not even the large congregation. Our sanctuary is about 700 seating capacity. I think their congregation was less than 300. But we thought, this is the language. And then also respect. Those are the kinds of things far more important than just Korean congregation, outgrowing them. Because back then around the time, this community was exploding. So church was basically we are welcoming 100 plus people every month. So we’re like growing really fast. But we decided to sacrifice our numerical growth, for the sake of building foundation for our vision.
So that’s why we leadership decided to give them 9:30 In the morning. So we are the eight o’clock service. And then they are 9:30am service. We are 11 o’clock service, 1:30pm service like that. So that’s how we did it, then English congregation grew and mature. They were ready to have their own building.
Pastor John Cha: So yeah, so when we pursued our own building, the cost of the building was about 7 million. So the EC said we will take care of the whole building campaign and take care of the mortgage. But when we applied for the building code, the county said, then you need to expand your parking. And that parking project would take would cost about 3.5 million. So we said that’s that’s a lot for us. So then the Korean side said actually, we need to expand the parking anyway. But we want to bless you with the building. We’ll take care of the 3.5 million parking. And then we took care of our own 7 million building campaign. And so we’re very thankful that we could grow together in this way.
Pastor Steve Chang: So now let me pose a slightly different scenario and Pastor Paul you said, Well, this is a model, a sample, it won’t necessarily work for all. And in fact, it doesn’t. And they can have the same heart, mind and humility and godliness. They love Jesus, but it’s doesn’t work. And one of the things I talked about is field condition, you can have a great set of architectural drawing, but the field conditions might be different for a different church or different setting.
Now, going back to my case, you know, we were worshiping in the 9:30am. And so when the Korean church went to the new property, etc, they would have given us a 9:30am service time, but I was projecting the long run.
Pastor Paul Kim: Yeah, that’s true.
Pastor Steve Chang: Yeah, I think if we kept going, Yeah, that’s just not a tenable situation. There’s a parking situation, etc. If we develop our own Christian Ed. There was just a limited room to grow.
Now, let’s say, let’s go back in time, and you were not. Let’s say you didn’t buy a 16 acre property, but you were at a six acre property and there was no opportunities to build a second sanctuary. What would you have maybe proposed or strategized in that case? Because that’s a situation that a lot of churches are in actually, they don’t have the opportunity to do what you do.
Pastor Paul Kim: I mean, another option is, you could rent a building near to your campus. By the way that we have only one Sunday school. So we do not have English Congregation Sunday School, KC. We intentionally build a just a one Sunday school, so that both congregation can send their children there. And we believe that church is not a cultural center. A church is where gospel needs to be taught with a language they can understand the best, right? So yes, I had some uphill battle in the beginning, but our Sunday school using English anyway, so we did not need to have to Sunday school, right.
And then at one point, as we go through this was not originally church building. This was a Computer Science Corporation building. So since we purchased just the commercial building, as we go through the remodeling, we have some conflict with the city. So we were basically kicked out of the building for almost eight months. So we have to worship in separate location for about a month.
After that, our English congregation they couldn’t decide that a we’re not going to join your game, but they decided to join us. So, I think yes, if you have a property like us, it help, but it is more than property. If you have that your dream is bigger. And then you can both find out the way you can run a sacrifice. So since we were not in the shoes, I cannot tell you exact solution.
But you know, like realistically when I see the churches, a lot of immigrant churches, not necessarily English Congregation is over 1000 members or you know, that large, so it could have worked out if you leadership is one accord and if we have the humility to really serve for the Kingdom.
The reason we are deciding one of the your question was about disciple making. Korean congregation wants to disciple Korean immigrant, and English congregation for either Korean American or other Asian Americans. I agree with that, but also not totally. Because I believe discipleship is a method to get to the bigger goal. Which we believe that existence of the church the reason for existence of the church is for all mission. So for us that mission is the bigger picture for that. If we cannot sacrifice each other here, we are actually being hypocrite, saying that we want to go to third world, where different culture, different language, we like to disciple them, we like to build the kingdom of God, it really doesn’t go well. So we had a willingness to sacrifice each other for the sake of the world mission.
Pastor Steve Chang: Thank you. So if, you know, like, part of what you’re saying is that if circumstances are slightly different, and you didn’t have 16 acres, etc, that if the priority was, hey, mutual sacrifice so that we can stay together, etc, it could be that the EC could rent a school down the street and things of that nature, that that would have been the second best option.
Pastor Paul Kim: We actually practiced that for many years before we move out to here. We used to have a very small campus, there was a one acre land. And fortunately, we had a high school across from our building. So English congregation they met in there, the auditorium and we met in our sanctuary. The sanctuary wasn’t large enough anyway. So we practiced that for a while, until God granted us with this property.
Pastor Steve Chang: Pastor John, I’m sure you talk to EM pastors all over, you know, frequently and on many occasions, and they would probably privately tell you, it’s really hard being with the KM. And in terms of, you know, fleshly speaking, while you know, the dictatorial, the change plans, they treat, juniors, the elders yell at me things of that nature. Right.
They don’t know that, you know, most Korean pastors experienced the same thing, too. But, but one of the things that they would share, it’s like, Hey, I feel like I’ve been called, like, like I meant, and mentioned and like, little questions that I sent to make disciples of the community, whether it be Korean Americans, or Asian Americans, or the multi ethnic community. That’s what we feel like we’ve been called to do. That’s our primary mission. But the Korean church expects us to, to help them with their primary mission of taking care of their children and youth.
And that’s how at least that’s how a lot of the EM churches feel. Yeah. What is your response to them? What would you tell them? Because that is the reality in many cases.
Pastor John Cha: I’ll share, I guess I could only share through our journey, I think for us, because we built it. And this is after much discussion, when we said one vision, two households, and one family. That two households, it’s kind of literally, you know, Pastor Steve, your kids can now invite non Korean friends over to their home. And they don’t always have to smell doenjang-jjigae or kimchi, right? Because they’re now just at the home of your kids. Our side, we do have more non Koreans who are coming to our Sundays, as well as to our Gospel communities or small groups, and we’re able to disciple them with no problems. They’re more than welcome.
Having said this, and I do want to speak for the KC side, they’re actually getting some non-Koreans as well. And so to the point where I believe Pastor Paul, you have several small groups, Grace communities, or or that are English speaking in your congregation. And then now on the Korean side, they have headphones for translation. So I think overall, our church is now at a place where both sides are kind of being much more open to non-Koreans.
In terms of us, feeling like we’re focusing on their kids or taking care of their kids, I actually did talk to our congregation. This was about 15 years ago, when there was talk about, you know, can we separate? Can we just focus on our kids and they focus on their kids and I did make a statement where I just said, you know, their kids are going to become us in about 10 years. So if there’s a best practices if there are resources, let’s not just keep it to ourselves, let’s share because those kids will be us.
Last year, I served interim with our college ministry, and I had a core of six young adults who poured into the college students. All six of them were children at the KC side, and I was their counselor when they’re going through the youth group. And I was so thankful because our EC side, there’s their kids, our kids are still in college. So in a few years, I hope they’ll be able to serve the rest of the college students. So there is this intertwining that’s already taken place.
In terms of reaching out to multi-ethnics. I think the role of our church and I both pass upon I we we cheer for, you know, multi ethnic churches. But for us, our hearts are for the ethnic immigrant church, where people who have just come together or you know, they’re kind of growing together. But what breaks our hearts is when they just leave on really bad terms. And those who leave do not end up going to church anymore, or something like that. So we just want there to be a healthy relationship where they do experience the gospel, not just hear it, but see it within the context of life together between the generations. And that’s where that’s where we feel like our model can speak into other ethnic churches.
And then perhaps 10 years later, they they go for a different direction. That’s, that’s completely fine with us. We’re just, we just want there to be health and this foundation for our family as a church in the beginning.
Pastor Paul Kim: Back to the question that you asked. You know, I’ve been in both shoes, I was under first generation leadership and I was a youth pastor, for youth, college pastor for seven years. So, you know, I don’t want to make it sounds like this is kind of accusation. But both sides. We both need to humbly grow together. That requires a lot of sacrifice. And I often hear I also personally went through that experience to that when the English congregation with a Korean congregation together, when English congregation is not growing, I often hear that from the English congregation pastor saying that we are not growing because of first generation congregation is dominant, right? We hear that very often. But in my experience, I look back. It was not. Yes, there are some you know, I’m not denying that. But because we were not mature leader yet. And then also, sometimes we have to be patient for the God’s timing.
So for instance, there was a time that when we our Korean congregation was investing for the English congregation, not necessarily they are the children of the Korean congregations. But we, as we said, we go to the third world, more relationship, we invest all those things to serve them. And if we cannot serve, maybe they are not blood related, you know, our own children, but they are same culture, you know, same background, if we can serve them or hardly, then we’re contributing ours to go to work, or worse.
So I emphasize that a lot with our leadership, they pour into that. So we practice that and, you know, both sides if we’re willing to sacrifice, you know, I’m a grandfather like you now. They’re one of the my children. They moved out here from Sierra and living with us because their house is not completed. It is hard as a parent, they took all my spaces, and, you know, I don’t have a privacy but, you know, we just grow together through that. So I wish that we both can endure together for a little bit longer. Then we’ll see more fruit of the interdependent church.
Pastor Steve Chang: I’m gonna summarize a few of the things that I think I heard from both of you. Number one, is when you see pastors who are talking about their frustration with the KM, etc, etc., and their inability to reach the multi ethnic community. I’ve heard two things from both of you, one thing is that, perhaps for at least for ODPC, that your goal in the niche that God’s given to you is the ethnic immigrant church, and you’re okay with that.
Secondly, that and this, I’m kind of reframing it, that really, you need to be a healthy church. More than anything else. If you’re a healthy church, there’s a chance that you’ll, you’ll reach the non Koreans, even if you have a Korean speaking church. But if you can get along just even with the differences, the cultural language differences within the Korean immigrant community and the second generation. What, how are you really preparing to do world missions? If you can’t practice what you’re preaching here. One of my friends used to say that the first potential church split in Acts chapter 6 was an intra ethnic split between the Hellenized and Hebraic Jews. And they had to solve resolve that and it kind of reminds us of the KM and EM. And so, yeah, thank you so much for those thoughts.
And by the way, yeah. When I’m speaking, I love the Korean church, and I wanted to be alongside of the Korean church. I wish it would logistically work out. I love and respect Pastor Song. And in fact, when I graduated seminary, I had offers from some large churches. One of them was from the East Coast, actually, not too far from you. But I wanted to work with someone that can just respect, and trust. That’s why I came.
Oh, and I also agree with your Pastor Paul, that when English pastors often complain that they can’t grow because of the KM. What I would say to them would mean directly or indirectly, you’re not growing because you don’t have game. That’s just a peripheral issue. In fact, the Korean congregation is probably helping you to grow more than you think. Because they’re feeding post high school students into your congregation.
And so yeah, I think sometimes, English pastors, they forget the benefit that comes with being alongside or they can, but they focus more on the negative and then when they get out there, become their own church, church plant in elementary schools, they complain about not having no facility and childcare and all those types of types of things.
Can I ask the two of you, if you’re sitting with a lot of a group of English pastors, and they’re talking about their situations, and you’ve already mentioned a lot of those things. But there are some situations you think, when you listen to them, you know, I for you, you interdependency may not work for whatever different reasons. It sounds like philosophically, the KM doesn’t think that way. Or that you know, your personal drivenness is going to interfere and that maybe it is better to and I tell people if you can’t be a cooperative EM, but you won’t leave you’re being a squatter, you’re, you’re being parasitic or you’re not being helpful. Just go then. Don’t stay and complain all the time. You’re sitting with a bunch of EM pastors. What would you like? Yeah, what would you say to them?
Pastor John Cha: Yeah, well, first of all, Pastor Steve “squatter and parasitic”—that’s being very old testament prophet there. You know, I, so for me, I would say, have a heart to heart talk with the senior pastor and and if if it’s much more of an elder, driven church sit with the elders. What do they even have a dream? Do they have a desire and a dream to raise a second generation properly and health in a healthy way?
And if they say no, then I would just say you know, then do another search for a pastor who will who’s fine with that. But I’ll stay and I’ll serve until you find that person. But I would I would make a plan to leave now if they are like, if they say yes, we just don’t know how, then for me, I’m much more of a, then I’ll, I’ll work with you. And and if it takes 20 years, for me, I personally would will stay those 20 years to help with the church.
Pastor Steve Chang: Pastor John, I know of no Korean pastor who, who, will say that they don’t have a heart and vision for the next gen. They all do. But the way that they envision it may be different.
Pastor John Cha: So I think this is where so what was always difficult for our church, ODPC was we didn’t have other churches that were 10 years ahead of us, right, so that we could say, hey, here are the mile markers, here are the things that were really helpful or things that we could do away with whatever, based off of this case model.
At least with our church, what, what we can offer, there is a conference, and we offer multiple conferences, where we invite the first gen leadership and the second gen leadership. Like almost like the senior pastor and an elder, the second gen pastor and an elder, and the four of them come and they could look at our church. Just critique our church, ask the hard questions. And then we give them time at the conference for the four of them to just talk it out. And, and then decide, and if they are for it, we will offer whatever resources to help them.
Again, not that they would be clones of our church, but at least through our church, they could ask, okay, this can work or this definitely won’t work. Or at least they have something to, to react to. Versus they have nothing to even talk about. Because there’s everything’s theory. So we just offer
Pastor Steve Chang: Benchmark that Pastor Paul was talking about. And if you can give me information on the conference offline, that would be helpful. we’ll include it. Pastor Paul, but at a conference like that, or when you’re sitting with first and second generation leaders, and you’re hearing their heart. But there’s, I’m sure there are times and go well, for you guys, that’s not going to work. Are there situations like that or other situations, Oh but I see a lot of potential in, in your situation?
Pastor Paul Kim: I think, I recently, actually, given some consultation for the large immigrant church. What I sensed from their leadership is, you know, both sides has hurt, because they’ve been betrayed from each other. And then also the they haven’t been, really, they have not been exposed to the very healthy model. So while we encourage them is our conference, we do biannually, while we are doing is that we just like to show them, hey, it can happen. You know, look, it happened to us, we’re nothing, I just am not any extraordinary leader. This is very ordinary people. Love the Lord. Love the kingdom. And the God blessed us where we are.
And, you know, patience and then also using us as benchmark, they don’t have to go make the same mistake. And, you know, just that’s what we tried to do is give them a message of the hope, at least try for certain periods of time before you just throw the towel in. So a lot of them I think it is because they don’t know how to do it. And then also they do have that hurt from the past and the fear for failure in the future. So if we can coach them a little bit better.
I think right now, the immigrant churches, they are much more willing to work together than in the past. Yeah, in comparing to the past. I remember, in the past, I’ve been in the church who just have no willingness. And I even remember the one of the chairperson of the elder board came visit to me visit me individually to apologize. So he apologized the way we treated you. So now I think that is much better time to try it.
So instead of just keep on hearing or just looking back for, you know, looking at all those past failures. I’m not saying that every church, this is a workable model. That’s what I meant by it. But if they have a humility, if both party willing to try it, I like to recommend them to do it. Hey, let’s do it for maybe five year, six year, and then we’re gonna reevaluate and decide how we’re going to move forward or, you know, take the reality and saying that, hey, I don’t think it’s going to work for us. For many of them without even trying out of the fear and of the not knowing. I think so many of them are giving up too early.
Pastor John Cha: I do think, Pastor Steve, like what we said at the very beginning about our model relationship is really important. And I guess as pastor Paul shared if there’s a breach of trust, past hurt, a lot of baggage that is not being released. That I would say that can just shut the door really quick.
And the congregation can tell when the pastors don’t get along. When the elders don’t get along. The congregation can tell, and they won’t, they won’t take those extra steps towards their first or second gen, brothers and sisters in the church.
Pastor Paul Kim: Let me just share with the one particular memory that I have. Early stage of our ministry. I only had a one assistant guy. And then PJ, after he resigned, PJ join me. Was a small church. I was a senior pastor slash janitor. So when it snows, you know, I slept in the office Saturday night, get up early Sunday morning, clean up the driveway and start. Most of the just, you know, forgive me if I’m too judgmental, most of the EC pastors, do you think that they will make a sacrifice to join me? They will not right. But John volunteered. Pastor John volunteered, after he found out that I was staying, he volunteer that I’m going to stay. And you know, we don’t know how much snow we don’t get snow that much here. So people get scared. So then we got up in the morning, we clean up the, you know, driveway a little bit so that whoever willing to come to the church, you know, be able to worship with us.
So I think that’s the kind of both sides, I think there is a very good picture of humility, and respecting each other for the kingdom and working together. You know, if you can go out of the your way without me asking if they offer that’s the kind of way you build a relationship. And, you know, so that’s how we came together.
Pastor Steve Chang: Absolutely. And you know, one of the things that I notice about the second gen pastors is that they’re so focused on what they believe God’s called them to do. And they neglect the way that they can serve even their Korean senior pastors. And another one of my pet peeves is second gen pastors talk about how the first gen pastors aren’t mentoring them. Like, Korean mentoring is different from the English mentoring. Korean mentoring is just you spend time you follow the senior pastor around and that you learn by seeing him in action. But they complain, well that’s not in my job description. Why are you making me do that or things of that nature but hey, thank you so much. I’m gonna stop the recording and you know, few things afterwards. Thank you so much Pastor Paul, Pastor John.