SOLA Network had the privilege of speaking to Dr. Ben Shin, a pastor, parachurch leader and professor for more than 20 years. He currently serves as Associate Professor of Bible Exposition and Director of the Asian-American Ministry track for the Doctor of Ministry at Talbot School of Theology in La Mirada, Calif.
Dr. Ben Shin talked to Hannah Chao, editor at SOLA Network. Listen to this important interview where they discuss:
- The most common threats to pastors today
- How to project whether a leader will be okay in the long run or is in danger of failing
- How to help pastors in Asian or Asian American contexts
Watch the interview on YouTube, listen to the audio on Podcasts, or read the transcript below. Please note the transcript has only been lightly edited and may contain spelling or grammatical errors.
Hannah Chao: You’ve seen many pastors fall from the ministry. What are the most common threats to pastors today?
Benjamin Shin: Yeah, that’s true. I’ve seen many, and some are even close friends. And I would say the number one cause is isolation. And with the isolation, there is an insular aspect where they don’t have friends. So whether they are forced to or they choose to be isolated, I think all of that contributes to their fall from grace. And a lot of that could have been avoided. In my opinion, a lot of it could have been structurally made. Or if there was more time allowed for them to have relationships and friendships, then perhaps they would have not fallen. But in the busy hustle and bustle of ministry, unfortunately, their soul and their safety is the last thing that is cared for.
Hannah Chao: So how can you then project when a leader will be okay in the long run, or the danger of falling? So you talked about friendships? Like, what does that look like? Practically?
Benjamin Shin: Yeah, so in my classes at Talbot, which are the pastoral ministry classes, I actually have a project that they have to do all semester called the friendship project. And it’s with fellow students in the class. And I asked them to do three things: eat together, study together and do something fun together. Now a number that people are like, great, that’s a great project. I’m happy to do that. And others are like, I don’t want to do that. That’s a predictor for me, that tells me hmm, why not? Now the age old answer is I’m an introvert. But introverts need friends too. And perhaps even more so. And so what I would really want to help people understand is, people can be a hindrance at times, but more than anything, they’re help. And so I’m trying to get people to understand the value. I mean, we as pastors, we tell our congregants, you should have accountability, you should be in community. But wait a second, if they’re not doing that, then that’s called hypocrisy. So you’ve got to practice what you preach. Otherwise, it’s just being words.
Hannah Chao: So what are some of the friendship practices that you have found to be helpful to you?
Benjamin Shin: Well, one of the things I love to do is eat. So I’ll invite people or I’ll say, hey, let’s meet at a certain place. And then let’s just, you know, again, I’m known to have a sweet tooth or sweet mouth, sorry. And so because of that, I’ll say, hey, let’s meet at a donut shop, you know, and we’ll just sit and we’ll talk for hours over doughnuts and coffee and just catch up. I’m a phone person, because I’m an old school person. So I’ll just call up people during the pandemic. I would call two or three pastors every week, just to say, hey, no agenda, how are you doing? Just checking in with you. Anything I could pray for you for? And I wanted to just befriend them. And so as an older person, sometimes people will feel hesitant because of the whole Asian hierarchy to call me or they’ll think “Oh, he’s so busy”. But look, this is an important priority for me because it’s not only something I enjoy, but it’s a benefit for myself. So I will always initiate it And I’ll say he’d call me anytime you want. Text me, let me know what’s going on. And, to my surprise, and also joy, they actually do it. So there’s been a lot of good relationships and friendships that I’ve enjoyed and benefited from which I’ve hopefully modeled both to my students, and to my colleagues in ministry.
Hannah Chao: So do you also then have, I would say, like layers or like circles of intimacy with certain pastors like how do you like, I’m sure, just having you know, 20 pastors that you call once a year isn’t the same. How would you help heal pastors to kind of balance the intimate friendships versus, you know, these beautiful other friendships?
Benjamin Shin: Yeah, yeah. Well, of course, we have to take our cues from Jesus, you know, he meant to the masses, and we do that on Sundays, perhaps. And then he did the 12. And then he had the inner circle. So I have like, two or three really close friends, that I feel like I can share unfiltered things. They are pastors as well. But in one, my best man is not a pastor, but a very committed church member. And we’ll just get together and we ask each other questions. How’s your family? How’s your marriage? How’s your thought life? How’s your spending? You know, how’s your health? Those kinds of questions. So, I do have two or three friends that I frequently get together with, or we talk to each other on the phone. And that’s just a real joy to have.
SOLA Network: Kind of the allure of being a pastor, especially in America as this position of prestige that leads to isolation. How would you say that has shifted for the Asian American church in the last, you know, few years?
Benjamin Shin: I think we are trying to break out of the mold of this model minority. And I understand that we don’t like to be known as that. But I think it’s gone too far, where sometimes we have gone the other extreme, where we become entitled. And you know, depending on where you come from, especially in other countries like Korea, like a pastor’s King, which, for my reading of Scripture, kings are the Old Testament, we don’t have to do that anymore. So I think there’s maybe an unhealthy hierarchy there. And I think that whether it be older or younger people, we sometimes take advantage of the honor and privilege we have here to a detriment, it becomes dangerous. And this goes back to what my first concern was about isolation. I’ve studied all the different mega pastors and apologists who have recently fallen. And basically, the thread in the MO is the same, they have isolation, they have no accountability. Bottom line, they have no friends. And so with the power power corrupts and corrupts thoroughly, that they just go buck crazy, and they do anything and everything they want. And they take shortcuts, and they take privileges that they shouldn’t have. And no one can say anything. In an Asian culture where you don’t question older people, boy, you can get away with murder. And so I am very opposed to that. And I try as the head older guy to flatten everything in an egalitarian way so that I am not above accountability. So for example, on our leadership team, I will never make a decision singularly, especially if it’s financial. So all four of us on our leadership team, and we have different generations. I’m in my late 50s, my associate is in his 40s. Our treasurer is in his 30s. And my college worship guy is in his late 20s. We all have to sign off on something so that there’s no surprises. And that way we have accountability. And I chose to do it that way. I could have said well, I’m just going to make the decision. But then that leads into a downward spiral. So I just don’t want to be caught in that situation. And I want to be above reproach as best as possible.
SOLA Network: During COVID, right, because we just couldn’t see people anymore. I know a lot of people kind of went through friendship crises, right. How do you see COVID And you know, the aftermath of COVID, how do you see these conversations around friendship and intimacy evolving and changing?
Benjamin Shin: Yeah. I think what’s starting to happen now, especially at our church, is that the absence of relationship and friendship is something that people missed. So now people are starting to come back to church and when they stand in the service, and are singing corporately, which is something we didn’t do online, they go “wow, I missed that for two and a half years”. And so our Easter Service, which we just had a few weeks ago, we had numbers that were equal to our high numbers prior to COVID. And I was just so happy I was praying for that, then we would have a specific number. And for specific people who we haven’t seen for two and a half years, they came back on Easter. So what I think is happening slowly is people are starting to engage again, and they’re craving relationships. And I think that is something that I’ve been praying for, for myself, for other people. And we’re starting to see it in the context of the church, and other places as well. So I just pray that that will continue and even excel beyond what it was prior to COVID.
SOLA Network: You know, I just mentioned researching all these high profile pastors fall, which is something we’ve been doing a lot to how do you, how do you counsel especially younger pastors who looked up to these people, right, and who were, you know, traumatized by this? How do they how have you been helping them process these high profile falls?
Benjamin Shin: Yeah. The big one, and this is publicly known, Ravi Zacharias, the apologist, incredible speaker, author of multiple books. I actually had people in my congregation who looked up to Ravi very highly, including myself, come to me and saying, “What do I do if God fell from grace? He didn’t seem to repent. He was guilty of all these atrocities.” And I said, As sad as it is that his life, what he actually said was true. And it’s true because propositionally, it’s true apart from the person, even Satan can say true things, even though he’s the adversary. And so the other thing I would say is there are other godly credible people who say the same things. William Lane Craig, Gary Habermas, JP Moreland, who I would point to as more positive role models, who have said the same things that Ravi has said, but they have not been disqualified. So I would try to restore their hope in the truth of what they’re saying, even though the credibility of their character is pretty much disqualified.
SOLA Network: For those who are involved in churches that have scandals that we don’t hear about, right, because, you know, with Ravi was like, it was public, it was global. But, you know, scandals are happening in local churches all the time. How do you kind of help to help those people process?
Benjamin Shin: Yeah. Well, one of the things that I guess I get to do by virtue of being at the Seminary is, as soon as something like that happens where a church leader falls from the church, and especially in the Asian context, I get the call. I think my number is somewhere 1-800-Ben-Shin, you know, you’ve had a scandal just give me a call. And at first I’m like, why is everyone calling me. But I realized in the providence of God, because I’ve seen so many of those situations that I have the experience, and I think I have a pastor’s heart. God is now using that. So I embrace that as an opportunity to minister. So the first thing I do is I find out what the damage was, I’ll go in and assess the situation. And usually, the best thing to do is I’ll bring a guy or I myself will come in and nurture the hurts. Because they don’t need another person. It’s usually the person is a really strong catalytic leader. He’s a great preacher, and so forth. They don’t need that guy, to be the follow up guy, they need a person who’s going to sit, nurture them, listen to their hurts, cry with them, empathize and minister, they need a shepherd. So in a number of situations that I’ve worked with, I bring in guys who I know are available, who are shepherds. I will also help set up pulpit supply so that they will have someone to preach for them. And then try to get them through a long term process of recovery, and hopefully, restoration. But it’s not easy. It’s not for the faint of heart. But it’s something that unfortunately, is necessary. And I guess God’s called me to do that.
SOLA Network: I was when I was pastoring. I think I tended to fall on the other extreme, I was like, so afraid of doing something wrong. And I think like certain things like you know, we talked about the Billy Graham rule, right? Like, where you’re so afraid that it actually kind of cripples you from doing ministry. How do you counsel pastors that maybe fall on that side of the extreme to be more healthy?
Benjamin Shin: Yeah. Well, for me, it’s about the rhythms of life. And the rhythm of life that I really encourage people to do is have relationships with people. So let me give you a couple of examples of that. So I am a scheduled person, and I’m very predictable. I like to go to the same restaurants, sit in the same seat, and order the same food. So, if the waiter sees me, they’ll say, Oh, the Dr. Pepper, you want the number two. So yes, exactly. I have a baker near our house I walk in. As soon as I walk in, he knows I want a blueberry muffin, he pulls it out, he puts it in the bag, he hands it to me, I give my $2.50. Okay, have a nice day. We’ll see you later. So I’m predictable. That’s a good thing. Because then if I ever come out of sequence, and people go, what’s going on here. So I shared that with my wife, she knows my rhythm. My kids know my rhythm. Everyone knows my schedule. Everyone knows where I am. And I’m okay with that. I don’t feel like that’s routine. I think it’s rhythm. It’s healthy. So I don’t live in fear. And I don’t have regrets. I think those are two things that I’m trying to avoid by just doing the right things by being in rhythm. And so there are cautionary things. And let me just say this, I’m a very cautious person, I want to be very safe. And so I know, you know, these days, people don’t like the Billy Graham rule. But I think that’s just wise for a lot of people. Because although I know that it feels like women are being objectified or sexualized, I get that. But I also know guys, they struggle with this. So I will actually tell my students in the classes probably don’t ride with youth, especially if they’re the opposite sex. Don’t ride in a car with a female, just be wise. And all I say is bring other people with you, so that you have accountability. So those are the kinds of things that I think I tell people, “don’t be smart, be wise” because there are a lot of smart sinners, who know how to get around the system. Be wise means that we take knowledge, and we integrate it into right living. So that’s what wisdom is, is knowledge applied. And so if we can do it that way, I think that shouldn’t be crippling. It should be freeing. Because I know what my rhythm is. And I’m in sync.
Hannah Chao: So the last thing I always ask, the last time I was asked is Is there anything about the subject that we’ve talked about that I didn’t ask him to want to, you know, add to the conversation? It could be yes. Could be no.
Benjamin Shin: No, yes, I could talk about this a lot. I mean, this is what I do in my classes at Talbot. I’m trying to save proof pastors for the future, because I know what has happened in the past. And so between what I’ve seen and what I’ve experienced, I try to give the heads up, I will share all the scary stories, so that they can turn back after Seminary in case they say, Ah, this is not I’m not cut out for this, or they’re better prepared for it. So I always want to be proactive, not reactive. So the last thing I would say is this, you’ve got to have healthy relationships. I’ve said this time and time again, relationship with God, including your family, that’s got to be the most important relationships. You’ve got to have friends, people who are not just pastors, but people that you can just talk to and shoot the breeze with. And finally then colleagues in ministry, who are doing what you’re doing. That last part, I’m so thankful I have my colleagues at Talbot. I have a slew of pastors that I would call friends. That’s life giving for me, I worry and I say woe, is the person who’s by themselves. They’re isolated. And they have a target on their back. Same thing. This guy, I’m going to go look for this guy. So that’s what I would say.