SOLA Network had the privilege of speaking to Jason Min, lead pastor of Citizens LA, a church in the heart of Downtown Los Angeles, CA. He’s also a co-host of the Off the Pulpit podcast. Jason Min spoke to Kevin Yi, SOLA Editorial Board member, about how to engage with creatives and Gen Z within local church congregations.
Their conversation included:
- How do creatives view the local church?
- How should the church view creatives?
- How can pastors value and honor creatives?
- How can the church connect with Gen Z?
We hope you are blessed and challenged by their conversation.
Watch the interview on YouTube, listen to the audio on Podcasts, or read the transcript below. Please note the transcript has only been lightly edited and may contain spelling or grammatical errors.
More SOLA Network Resources featuring Jason Min:
- Article: Why Do We Sing at Church?
- Interview: Addressing Deconstruction in the Church
- Panel: Understanding Spiritual Abuse in the Asian American Church
Kevin Yi: What have you learned through your relational and geographic proximity to those in the entertainment industry?
Jason Min: Relational, I’m assuming you’re referring to my brother. And yeah, definitely. I pastor a church in downtown Los Angeles. So obviously, a lot of creative artists are coming through our services. I’d say the biggest thing is that they are increasingly suspicious of the church, and don’t always feel that the church is a safe space for them.
And to answer the question of how can we better serve this community? I’d say one is to have them in the room, especially for important conversations that actually shape the church to give them a voice. Because I think artists and creatives are like everyone else: They want to be valued for who they are, not what they bring to the table, or what they can do.
But this is challenging for churches because artists create a problem, right? They, by their very nature, push up against the status quo. They push boundaries, they think outside the box, and they ask a lot of questions. And especially if you’re a church that has done this one thing one way for however long you’ve existed, having an artist in the room doing what an artist does, can be really inefficient.
Every church is asking, how do we attract more creatives? And yet, they’re always what they mean is, how can we get creatives to execute the things we come up with? To do what they do? But the way we want them to do it and that’s not really valuing their voice. That’s basically exploitation.
You know, what does it look like for us to have creatives at the forefront of planning conversations? You know, what does it look like to have creatives actually shape the ministry and speak into the ministry even maybe shape the way we communicate the gospel to our congregation?
I can think of so many stories of like, you’ll have someone who Monday through Friday who is like in digital media, and then they’ll come to your church. And rather than asking them, “Hey, we would love to learn from you about some of the things we’re doing right now that isn’t really connecting with this generation?” Instead, we’ll have them design the children’s ministry flyers for the following week. And it’s just like, these are people who make a living doing this stuff. And so you can almost understand why I think for a lot of creatives and artists the church just doesn’t feel safe for them. And so,
Kevin Yi: Yeah, that’s really good. I think pastors, especially those who aren’t creative, can be intimidated by those who are creative. So what would you say to somebody who wants to go to that place to create a safe space for creatives, but then just really feels intimidated and isn’t sure. Like I want to be cooler, I want to be hipper, and I just don’t know how to do that because I’m not so into those kinds of things.
Jason Min: Yeah.
Kevin Yi: What would you say to get someone started down that path? I think a lot of answers you gave really good in terms of learning how to slow down maybe some of the processes to allow for artists to speak into that. There’s more practical things maybe.
Jason Min: I think there’s like a huge kind of misnomer that in order to reach creatives you have to be hip and cool. And I think that cannot be further from the truth. In fact, if there’s anyone who hates pretense and performative love, its artists. So much of what they do is to try to portray the authentic self and to come from a place of authenticity.
So even just a conversation like, that is like, “Hey, I would love to learn more about what you do. I would love to learn more about kind of why you got into the field you’re in. how you got into the industry, and I would love to learn more about your story.”
It’s insane how quickly those relationships can be forged. Because for so many artists and creatives, they just feel like cogs in a machine too, where they’re just working for the man and doing what people want them to do. So for someone to even ask them what their story is, I think they would love to share it. So I think just starting there just a simple what you would do to any, for any person in your congregation, I think is good.
Kevin Yi: So, obviously, you’re at a church that has a lot of creatives, and you’ve been able to foster an environment where creative fields feel safe for you as a pastor who has to also teach and preach to creatives, do you feel the pressure to be creative? And to put it like to do storytelling in a way that really draws in those who are already creative? Or do you feel like they’re here because they love the community and the environment that you’ve been able to create? So you don’t feel as much of that pressure?
I feel like sometimes younger pastors, we feel this desire to be impressive creatively, sometimes in our teaching in our pastoring, in some of the people that we follow to be along those lines, if I’m honest, I see you that way. And so I’m just wondering, when it comes to the way that you plan, your teaching, and your preaching how much of that factors into the way that you kind of approach the pulpit?
Jason Min: Yeah, this is gonna sound like one of those meta philosophical things. But I like to think of all of us as artists and creatives in our own right. And I actually think, especially at the beginning, stepping into this role, and being a week to week preacher, I did feel that pressure. Not necessarily to like impress the creatives at our church, but more so just a pressure.
You’re in LA. It is a town where everyone is a storyteller. There are multi million dollar films being made, and you have to get up for 30-40 minutes every day and tell this story. How do you do it in a compelling way? And so I think I definitely felt that pressure.
But actually, over time, I realized that the best gift that I can give to my congregation is myself, and like a voice that is uniquely mine. And sometimes, I have impostor syndrome; I feel insecure about that voice. But more and more I feel like that is what really connects with people.
You know what it’s like when people see, “Oh, what does the gospel mean to me? And how does it manifest in my life?” How do I communicate what is actually good news to me, to our congregation, and almost everything else flows out of that. And it’s easier to contextualize because you’re speaking from your authentic experience and using your voice. And I feel like creatives really appreciate that.
For a lot of creatives and artists, especially in Hollywood, their whole lives, they have to play a role, and then you talk about Gen Z, whose lives are on social media. Basically their entire lives are a performance. Sometimes it’s like they are playing a construct of who they feel like they need to be. So then it would be such a shame for them to come to worship on Sunday and hear a pastor get up there and again, try to perform and morph into something that that a pastor felt like he or she needed to be for these people what they want. What is so refreshing is someone who is able to be authentic and to share who they are from the pulpit. And I think that helps a lot.
Kevin Yi: I like thinking of all the times when I tried not to be that way. I’m repenting right now.
Okay, I’m gonna switch gears just a little bit. And you talked about Gen Z and just sort of the ways in which we need to present ourselves to them because those are things that they value. Now that you have Gen Z and younger millennials influencing more of culture, there is generally speaking, a change that’s happening and it’s impacting our culture in various ways. So as a pastor, how valuable is it? Or what’s valuable about being aware of these, these trends of these, these changes that are taking place? And sort of how do you take into consideration that as a pastor of your church?
Jason Min: Yeah, I mean, Tim Keller used to say the way he preps his sermons is he has the Bible in one hand, New York Times in the other. And I do feel the same way about the importance that, as pastors, to understand the cultural waters that their congregation is swimming in. Obviously, in LA, we’re in the thick of it. We are the hub for a lot of the culture that’s being put out there and the culture that gets adopted.
In some sense, I would say, our culture is doing a much better job discipling our people than we are and our culture is super creative. There’s so much we can learn from the way our culture tells its story. You know, and I think, even sometimes, the way we frame these questions you know, I hear a lot like, “Oh, man, Jason, aren’t you scared? Because the culture seems to be getting more and more secular and godless? And what is the church to do?”
And I think, right there, there’s an assumption that culture and the church are diametrically opposed to one another. And I think, when you carry that paradigm, then the way you view how you minister to the culture is, “How are we going to get into the culture? And bring Jesus into the culture? How are we going to save them from their sins?” When in reality, that isn’t the job of the church. God is already there. God is already active and working in the world, in our culture, and it’s our job to discern.
What are we seeing in culture? What is true, good and beautiful? How do we separate truth from lie? How do we see that culture isn’t always something that’s bad inherently, but how do we see culture actually being a mirror back to us, showing us these are the things that people are actually longing for? And these are actually the things that Jesus satisfies? You’re not even going to get like underneath those core longings unless you’re regularly kind of like what your people are watching. What are they reading? What are they consuming? What does their intake look like? Because you now need to take the gospel and contextualize it to say “Hey, that thing that this show is telling you about that longing in your heart, that’s actually a good longing, but culture is telling you the way to satisfy that longing is XYZ. This is what the Gospel says that you don’t need to do anything to satisfy that. You don’t need to be anyone, there’s no image you have to preserve or protect is the gospel. Jesus loves you and accepts you.
But so many of the times. we’re so afraid of culture, that we’re like, “Oh, man, we need more Christians in the like music industry to sing songs about God to combat all the songs that are like, not about God.” I just think that’s just gonna lead to something really colonial and weird. And I just don’t think that’ll work, especially in the post-Christian world we live in.
Recently I was watching Beyonce’s performance at Coachella from a few years ago. And when you watch that performance, from beginning to end, you’re like, that is a masterful worship service that is speaking to everyone’s longing to worship something. It’s just that it’s now a secular salvation schema.
The “good news” in that worship service is to find your true voice in. Sin in that salvation schema is anything that oppresses your authentic self. Sin is all the authority laws, rules that keep you from becoming who you really are. So they organize an entire worship service, that performance, around communicating that message and they do it masterfully. The way they use their bodies, the way they engage the mind, the way they connect them to tradition.
I mean these are things churches should be doing. We don’t really often see like the confessions and like these things as like, “What is the purpose of these things that we’re doing? Oh, they’re connecting us to a rich tradition of believers throughout the centuries doing these things.” I don’t think we are as thoughtful about how we are communicating the good news, as our “secular” counterparts are about communicating their message to their respective congregations.
Kevin Yi: Okay, you talked about the Beyonce concert. What I’m seeing you doing is seeing our culture’s liturgy for what it is. Yes, actual liturgy. And so you talked a little bit about how churches need to think through deeper their liturgies and how we’re facing a particular cultural liturgy, too. So I’m trying to frame a question around this idea because I think some pastors are nervous about that because they feel like that’s going to drain us of our gospel principles.
So what are some ways practically that pastors can learn to do what you’re doing better? Which is essentially what Tim Keller’s talking about when talking about newspaper and Bible? He’s saying those are the things I’ve learned how to get the both culture and scripture. But when it comes to Tik Tok versus x, you know those are just a different skill set. What would you say to pastors who are like, I would love to do more of what you’re talking about? Connect with my people who are in those spaces? But it’s not like you learned that in a seminary class.
Jason Min: Yeah, that’s so hard. And again, when you have one paradigm, which is culture, the world equals bad, and let’s become like a fortress, it’s so hard to even think about culture in that way. So I think the first thing is, for sure, like a paradigm shift that needs to happen in order for you to actually start engaging the content, not from like a critical lens, but saying, “Hmm, what are the good things here?” What are the things that like, “Oh, this is actually hitting something that our congregation members really need, and long for?”
One passage that really comes to mind that jacked me up was a passage in Isaiah 10. And it talks about how God has chosen an emissary, Assyria, to send Assyria to a godless nation. And I remember reading that and being really confused by that, because I was like, “Wait, Assyria is the godless nation.”
But then when you actually read the passage, you realize that the godless nation is Israel—it’s the people of God. And so your mind gets rewired to realize, “Oh, God has chosen the Assyrians to be a prophetic critique of the church, not vice versa.” Granted, God will deal with the Assyrians too. He will deal with and judge everyone. But that was such a huge paradigm shift, to say, “Hmm, could it be that maybe like, the problem isn’t out there, which we always think it is, that’s infiltrating the church? Could it be that we have a problem in here?”
And could it be that we need the culture to show us what the problem is because right now, especially with Gen Z, the church does not start off with an A—the church starts off with an F. There is already a deep cynicism, suspicion when a person, especially a young person enters the church, about what the church is about. So even to come into a place where, you know the pastor or the leaders are freely using, like these cultural elements that are very familiar to them, to actually not criticize the culture, but to criticize themselves and to use them as a means to self-examine, I think you start to build bridges of trust, where people say, “Okay, they’re not approaching this from a position of superiority to the culture. They’re seeing this as we’re all broken.” And God is doing something in the world that is obviously not a Christian world anymore. You know, what are the things how do we as a church, join God in the work that he’s doing? So how do we bring that into the church rather than take what’s in the church and take it out there, if that makes sense.
Kevin Yi: That is so good. I feel so moved to like, think more deeply about how as a church, we can be more open to the post-Christian culture that we see, as opposed to just simply thinking about everything that’s happening outside as an attack as a spiritual attack. But really, that this is, could potentially be or is actually a prophetic moment. That’s just commenting on that question.
SOLA Network: How do you like what are some fun ways that you’ve been implementing those tools like in your church? Like TikTok discord, Twitch, like all these new tools?
Jason Min: I know, it’s overwhelming. You know we’ve actually been right now we’re in we’re at the stage that we’re as a church are starting from the very ground up. So we have like, creatives at the highest seat of leadership in our church making decisions.
But I think that’s actually a big question right now that we’re wrestling with how and we talked about this in our group as well. What we’re wrestling with is how people communicate. Do we feel like it’s necessary for the church to adopt? And what parts? Does the church offer a counter-cultural solution?
Like so it’s funny when we polled our church, and we asked, “Oh would you want TikTok content? It was always the older people who felt we should do more of that. And it was the Gen Z’s being like, “Why are you doing that? Don’t do it because it’s always going to be like a poor man’s version. We’re not going to do it well.”
So it’s like the dad trying to do the funny dance with the youngins. So it’s like what parts of it? Do we say, “Okay, this is how our culture is communicating. We should like we should meet them where they’re at.” What aspects? Do we say, “Man, there’s this thing about embodied presence with the body of Christ that offers an alternative to maybe like, their connection, which is all digital, maybe less personal, where the idea of friendship is super diluted?” How does the church offer something different? So we’re actually in the product? We’re actually wrestling through those questions right now.
Kevin Yi: Because I think a big part of the tools we use does shape our people. And I would say, to some degree, it’s kind of a chicken and egg question.
So in your church, you have a lot of creatives, and you have them at the highest levels of leadership, definitely going to derive the way that you do things. That therefore makes the church as a whole a little bit more open to creativity and what God’s doing through those spaces. So there’s definitely momentum when it comes to those kinds of things.
I think the question for me as a lead pastor, in terms of building trust, with your congregation to do things that maybe in some other places would feel like things are moving too fast. I wonder if that’s something you guys have wrestled with. And so how do you lead through change, when it’s not coming through, like structural systemic change, more driven by creativity? And what does that look like? And how do you navigate through some of that stuff? Change in any leadership position? Scary, but create creative changes different kinds of beasts?
Jason Min: Yeah, no, that’s a that’s such a good question. I think as leaders, we always want change much faster than the rest of our community. And so definitely, I’m a firm believer that change happens. Changing culture happens one conversation at a time. So I think, definitely, in terms of just having those conversations, I think is really important.
The second is, I think, changing slowly and through constraints. There’s another kind of misconception about artists that I think scares a lot of pastors and leaders which is that artists just want to be free with no limitations, no constraints. That’s actually probably one of the most stressful things for a creative or an artist to be like, “Hey, what do you guys think? Can you just like, create?” They’re just like, “What?”
But let’s say you say, “Hey, we have this one section in our worship service, the confession of sin. And we’re not trying to change the whole worship service, because the congregation is not going to be prepared for that. But is there something we can do in this one small section of the service that you think can really communicate what we’re trying to create?”
I’ll give you a perfect example from our own community. We have a time of confession. And it’s praise, and then we go into this time of confession. The music is loud, and all of a sudden, it drops. And it was super awkward, so what we started doing was put some background music during that time, while whoever’s presiding would lead us in a time of confession of sin.
Well, it was actually one of the creatives on our staff, who was like, “Hey, not a huge change. I’m cool with the background music, but how about just for that the time that we’re actually confessing? Can we just have it like, complete silence utter silence?” Everyone else was like, “Wow, man, don’t you think that’s awkward?” They’re like, “No, but like, that’s what confession sometimes should feel awkward. You should almost be able to hear the gulps in your throat, and the beauty of confession is like, “Hey, you’re naked, and God sees you for who you really are.”
There’s no mask, there is no music in the back, it’s just you and God, and you’re still loved. And if that’s what you want to communicate with that time, I really feel like we should just go dead silent in that time.
And that’s what we do. And that’s like an example of a really small change. But you’re now inviting creatives into the conversation and allowing them to like shape, kind of and then I think over time, get them into different parts of the service. Maybe even start getting them in to give feedback on sermons, but I think steps you know, so that people can process that change slowly.