SOLA Network had the privilege of speaking to Dr. Alexander Jun, who serves as executive director of the PCA’s Korean American Leadership Initiative (KALI). He is also a professor who conducts research on equity and justice in higher education; a ruling elder at New Life Presbyterian Church in Fullerton, California; and moderator for the 45th General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church in America in 2017.
Dr. Alexander Jun spoke about the history of the immigrant church, the importance of Asian American voices, and the importance of ethnic-specific spaces like KALI.
Their conversation also included:
- The difference between segregation and separation in ethnic churches
- The role and growth of second-generation Asian American churches
- The national role of Asian American Christians
We hope you are blessed and challenged by their conversation.
Watch the interview on YouTube, listen to the audio on Podcasts, or read the transcript below. Please note the transcript has only been lightly edited and may contain spelling or grammatical errors.
SOLA Network: So tell us, what does the PCA stand for? And what is the Korean American Leadership Initiative? What’s the story behind that?
Alex Jun: Yeah. So the PCA, the Presbyterian Church in America. A very southern, southeastern conservative theologically, and socially, mostly white denomination in the United States. Much more conservative theologically than the PC USA. Our denomination has been around since the 70s. So we’re celebrating coming up on 50 years.
And it’s interesting because if you know a little bit of the history of the Korean immigration story, we had a good group of Korean pastors coming to the United States. It’s sort of tied to American history with the immigration in the 60s of Koreans, a bulk of Koreans coming from the 60s and many were Presbyterian, and they were looking for a denomination. And they had a choice of several they landed on what they thought was a mainline mainstream American denomination: Presbyterian denomination.
So there was this movement in the 80s, where they had a joining and receiving a sort of on mass, Korean American or Korean immigrant pastors and churches joining the PCA. But language was an issue. So they made special concessions and allowed Koreans to have their own presbyteries, right.
SOLA Network: Which is like a governing body.
Alex Jun: That’s right. It’s a governing body of mostly pastors, teaching elders, and they took care of themselves. It took care of each other and kept each other accountable. And we had one Korean language presbytery. Now we have 10. And so you can see the growth, especially in a time when the PCA was sort of dying out or there was a struggle. Korean language presbyteries and Korean pastors really helped save the denomination. We represent probably 12% of denomination now.
Well, we know the immigration history, we know what happens to children of immigrants who may or may not speak Korean, may be familiar with the language and the culture but they don’t speak it fluently. And they’re certainly not doing ministry in Korean. So you have this generation of Korean Americans who become pastors. The Lord’s call them into this work. And then they come to a crossroads.
The first is, do I need to be fluent in Korean so that I could become a Korean pastor preaching and teaching in Korean? Or do I lean into where I am and where God’s led me to preach and teach in English. So you have the ubiquitous E M English ministry, usually subsumed under a Korean Ministry. It’s got a whole bunch of issues right there. But a vast majority of Korean American pastors and members, by extension, feel lost. Don’t really fit in the Korean culture and the language but a lot of affinity with Korean people in Asian Americans. And then the silent Exodus that was talked about two decades ago where they would leave the immigrant church, but they were just as lost because they go to big white churches. And they’re like, This doesn’t feel right either. Too much code shifting, too much misunderstanding as innocent as it may be. And then sort of a lack of acceptance. Not so much as a member of a church but being seen as a spiritual authority. So you have this crossroads for a lot of Korean American pastors.
Well, fast forward to 2017 2018 and we had a pastor a teaching elder in our denomination. Henry Ko who retired aired and served very, very faithfully for the Korean language presbyteries. It reveals a lot about sort of a white dominant perspective, where they simply said, well, once he retires, we’ll find someone that will find a second generation person to take over. Misunderstanding. Fundamentally, we have a Korean speaking group and then an English speaking group. But not all Koreans are the same. It’s completely different universes.
And so we had a division where we had to find a Korean speaking Korean language coordinator for the 10 presbyteries and then this other strange gap of Korean Americans who are still in the church still in the immigrant church, but are leading English speaking ministries, in some cases under a km session, in other cases, sort of a bifurcated working together in one church, interdependent model, or in other cases, completely independent and working on their own. But Korean Americans, by and large when they attend to General Assembly, which is our annual gathering for the PCA would feel very lost. It’s a dominantly white southern denomination, and when they gather, you just feel lost, you feel as lost in these big white spaces, as you do in Korean language spaces. And so what emerged was the Korean American leadership initiative, and we exist to fill that gap.
So that pastors who are in this space sometimes feel like they’re doing ministry on an island. And our role is to connect them to other people who felt like they were on an island. They’re not Korean enough to do Korean language ministry. But we’re still immigrants or children of immigrants or minorities in America, ethnically and they don’t fit necessarily in this broad white denominational space.
SOLA Network: You’re describing Hawaii but…
Alex Jun: Yeah, that’s right. That’s right.
SOLA Network: How long ago was that when that first started?
Alex Jun: So this would have been 2017 2018 when Henry Ko retired, and they were looking for a new coordinator, or someone to oversee Korean Ministry,
SOLA Network: In the last like three years, especially going through COVID, going through a bunch of political stuff. What are some of the fruits that you’ve personally seen from, you know, having that space that was built, thankfully, before the pandemic?
Alex Jun: Yeah, it really in many ways to find the silver lining in the midst of the pandemic zoom meetings on a regular basis, we started something in the last couple of years, I think I entitled it “things you never learned in seminary”. So conversations about abuse, about finances, about self care, all these other issues. It theologically rooted, but it’s not a theology class. It’s not Greek or Hebrew or anything like that. And we started having KALI family conversations. And it was one of the most crucial points and we literally had a brother who lives in Hawaii on an island who felt alone. And it was a lifeline for him. Not just the topics, but the time we were able to spend together afterwards, just in groups, and very similar experiences. Everybody felt alone, everybody was feeling burnt out. Everyone was feeling a lack of community. And they felt like they were just doing ministry on their own, dealing with first generation KM issues, which is very common, or feeling out of place in predominantly white spaces.
And so I think this was a critical role that we had not waiting for General Assembly to have one or two meetings, a social event, and a dinner and maybe a seminar or two, at the General Assembly, we were able to do it year round. And I think that was a critical piece that made people feel like they’re still connected. And it was very helpful.
SOLA Network: And as you’ve been hearing stories from those pastors, you know, like autonomy is essential to confidence, right? Like, how do you feel like, have you heard stories where you know, these pastors, they kind of have that renewed confidence that renewed motivation? And what does that look like?
Alex Jun: Yeah, I don’t know. I’ve heard people feeling more confident. I think what they’re what people are more comfortable now, increasingly with pastors. Is their feelings of inadequacy because they know they’re not in a Korean language and Korean culture, context. And then feelings of inadequacy of being ethnically a minority in white spaces. Finding others sort of led to a greater sense of solidarity, that you’re not alone. I don’t know if that necessarily leads to confidence, but it certainly leads to knowing that God sees us. God sees you and you see others who are in the same situation. And there’s a strange sort of comfort that comes from knowing that you’re not alone. And I think if nothing else, you feel like the denomination is for you. And that’s part of the goal of KALI. To know that you belong. But I think a big part of before we get into service and leadership, you have to want to be there. And so part of our role is just finding a place for people to feel like they belong.
And I don’t know if others are like this, but I certainly am. When I go to some new situation. I look and I see, oh, there’s another Korean American. Let me go talk to this person, right. And you start counting noses. Oh, that person looks Korean, that person’s Asian. Let me go talk to them. And we’re just leaning into that and being intentional to say, hey, guess what, there’s a space for you, Korean Americans, Asian Americans to gather together, and we used to do one event during the General Assembly. Now we’re doing it every day, every night, there will always be a place for you. So we have Airbnb, and it’s, we’re going to call it the KALI house. And people are welcome to come over and stay as a respite for the business of assembly business, or just to be there and make new networks and friendships and ministry partnerships. Yeah,
SOLA Network: I know, one of the fears, oftentimes that is associated with people forming their own spaces is that they’re going to separate, right? And they’re going to segregate Yes. But I believe as a Christian, right, that when we see each other’s differences, we learn to celebrate those and appreciate them. What are some of the ways that in the last few years of KALI finding this that maybe you have seen a greater appreciation of cam, you know, culture and even white? You know, PCA culture? How is that? How are those relationships grown by having this safe space?
Alex Jun: Yeah, one thing we recognize is we are not a monolithic group, right. And Korean Americans ourselves are the first to recognize that we all don’t think the same, some are more conservative than others. Some are more progressive than others. But I do want to make the distinction not to get too overly academic. But the difference between segregation and separation.
Segregation, as we understand it in the United States is a legal mandate to keep people away from others based on race. And there’s a lot of power dynamics in that. And that is wrong. Separation is different, because we’re not robbed of the freedom to meet together if we want to, that doesn’t make one group better than the other. But you’re able to lean into the joy of being with like minded people in affinity groups. We see this in other spaces, too, don’t we we see business people getting together as Christians and sharing. Athletes who get together. But we never call that segregation. It’s an affinity group. And sometimes it gets misunderstood, to say, oh, Korean Americans or Asian Americans are spending all their time together. And we don’t like other groups. That’s not true. But we absolutely benefit and appreciate all the work of what white churches have been doing. Of what black churches, LatinZ churches do, and of course, Korean language churches, and I think we have a deeper appreciation as we grow older.
In many ways, they are literally our parents, if nothing else, our spiritual parents, and we stand on the shoulders of the generations that came before us. So it’s a deep appreciation. And I hope it’s not misunderstood that from the first generation Korean language perspective, EM pastors are leaving us, right. And there’s a pain associated with that. But it’s a pain that sort of similar to parents and children, right, there comes a point where children need to grow up and make their own mistakes, as much as parents want to hold on to them. The best way to love them is to let them go and grow. And I appreciate very deeply, that foresight that some Korean language, first generation immigrant pastors have seen and are allowing this to happen. And so we’re grateful for it.
But I do want to share this other story of how KALI literally came about and it comes and it emerges in a place of deep pain, something that we’re familiar with. There was a Church in Houston, a very, I think, at one point, very faithful and successful church, one of the larger churches, that we’ve hear the stories in all types of churches, they had issues and they split, and then they split again and they split again. And what was left was just a handful of people in a building. And what they decided to do with this church is sell the building And then they donated. And this immigrant church decided, we’re going to donate the money, half of the money is going to go for North Korea missions. And so they worked with Lloyd Kim and mission to the world. And the other half of the money they decided to donate for the future. And they gave it to Korean Americans for the second generation. I mean, what a selfless, beautiful act of love. We literally stand on the shoulders of the immigrant Korean church that saw this and saw the future and wanted to literally invest in our future. And so that’s how KALI continues to sustain ourselves was from this one very large gift that came from deep pain and sorrow. But the Lord is using it for His glory and for His Kingdom.
SOLA Network: As you know, the generations are shifting right now, right? Gen Z is kind of coming into the workforce and all these things. How do you see KALI as a Korean American, right, like, affinity group? How do you see that shifting with third generation fourth generation and non Korean?
Alex Jun: Well, first, let me talk about the generational piece. Folks who are the Gen Xers who primarily had to deal with when we say older Koreans, there was language and culture. And now we’re seeing second and third generation Korean American pastors going into ministry, which is really, really encouraging. It’s generational, right? We’ve got generational differences. Millennials think differently from Gen Xers and Gen Z Think Different from millennials, and they’re all Korean American. And so we need to recognize that our own Korean American Experience is vastly different from the next generation. So we don’t have a monolithic approach to life or to ministry. And so for us to recognize that I think is important. That Gen X generation is learning what it means to mentor in ways that many feel like they haven’t been mentored before. We don’t have the language barrier anymore. And so culture becomes a bigger issue. Communication, even if we both speak the same language, has become an issue. And so we’re studying this and trying to understand, and I had heard this somewhere that Gen Xers need millennials and Gen z’s in their life, not to mentor them, but to be mentored by them. So he can understand what this younger generation is thinking and how they’re operating.
I thought that was really instructive for the older generation. There’s a part of us that I always say, you can take Alex out of Korea, but you can never take Korea out of Alex, and this sort of generational. If we want to look at it positively, we can, we can love people who are younger than us. But there are also negative parts of our culture, where we expect to be served by the younger, and that sort of thing needs to die with each successive generation. So we’re learning about that. In our denomination, Koreans are the largest Asian American ethnic minority. And so we played around with the idea of should it be KALI? Or should it be ally, you know, Asian American leadership initiative. But if it was Asian American, but we’re predominantly Korean, then we’d have the same problem. They say you say you’re Asian American. But really, you’re just working only with Koreans.
And so we decided to lean into what we are, and call it what it is. It’s a very, very specific niche. But our prayer is that there would be a Chinese American fellowship, Vietnamese American fellowship, Lord willing, a lot of other ethnic groups within our denomination, would be able to find affinity groups, and we’d be in support and in solidarity with each other.
SOLA Network: Right. And I feel like with technology net, where it is now like, that is logistically possible. It’s a way that it wasn’t before. But I think, on a local church level, right? Where you don’t have the resources of a denomination and you don’t have these large contributions and you know, a small church of, you know, maybe a few 100 Max, right, like, how would you encourage them to embrace some of these things that you’ve learned?
Alex Jun: That is a good question. You know, one thing that I have come to appreciate over the years with some larger white churches, but they’re not always larger white churches. Institutional giving. The fact that there are local churches, who see their denomination and other large Christian Ministries as an opportunity for them to care. Financially and otherwise, that simply didn’t exist in the minds of an immigrant or post immigrant church, we are so busy surviving, trying to get a building. I mean, we just have a very short history, but to see how resources are being used for the kingdom in a very, very godly stewardship way, for some larger white churches, hugely encouraging and instructive. And that’s a lesson that we can learn. How do we move beyond just survival as a post immigrant church, to see ourselves as part of a larger fabric of Christianity in America. And so that’s a lesson that I’m learning that I’m trying to pass on to other Asian American churches to say we can be supportive of institutions, and not just individuals. That’s really a big lesson for us to hold, learn.
SOLA Network: And that we’re a part of these bigger things.
Alex Jun: That’s right, that we see ourselves not just as our own entity, but we see the connections of other churches, other denominations, other Christian ministries.
SOLA Network: And as you’ve been, you know, encouraging and speaking those things into your local church, what excites you about like, where this is going and where the future is?
Alex Jun: I feel like at our church, we had an interesting experience where we started as a Korean and Korean American church with Korean language ministry, and English ministry. We’re now interdependent, we share the building, but we have separate leadership, separate budgets and all that. I feel like we are and I’ve been at this church now nearly 30 years when the church started. And I could see finally we’re moving out of survival mode. And as I was alluding to earlier, we’re seeing ourselves as recognizing ourselves as part of the bigger picture, in very tangible ways.
The fact that our church is involved in denominational work, financially giving not just individual missionaries, but our denominations mission wing: mission to the world, giving to TGC, giving to other organizations like Westminster seminary, it’s really encouraging to be part of a bigger Christian family, and our church, recognizing that and then communicating that to the rest of the congregation members, that down to the last member, we recognize that we’re not just a local church, but we’re part of a broader Christian kingdom. I mean, that’s really, really encouraging.
SOLA Network: And that’s something that I think in the wave of the 90s, in the 2000s, to non denominational churches, a lot of people kind of lost, right. Yeah, that sense of being a part of a bigger family.
Alex Jun: That’s right. Yeah, we’re still very much tied to our dominant denomination. I think denominations are important, I think because accountability is important. It doesn’t work perfectly. But at least we have a system in place. Yeah, that’s a critical piece. But again, part of it is because of the immigrant generation, the folks whose shoulders we stand on language and culture is a barrier. So they may not have been involved as deeply at the national level. The children, who speak the language and are familiar with the culture, I feel like we actually have a responsibility to carry on the legacy. And be involved, not just in our local church, local church is absolutely critical. But there’s also a denomination or a national movement that we need to be a part of, and part of the conversation.
SOLA Network: I think, seeing that bringing those cultural things to that bigger body is a part of our joy. Like they need us.
Alex Jun: Yeah, we are no longer a liability or an afterthought. We’re actually an asset to this ministry. And we ourselves being Asian Americans never see ourselves in that way. We’re like, oh, no, no, I’m not I don’t I’m not qualified. I don’t belong, right. But this is where I channeled my mediocre white man. And I’m like, no, they need me. I need to be in this space. Right. That’s right. And then if I don’t know anything that I’m going to talk more. Yeah. All joking aside, I think there’s something that for Asian American Christians, who are hesitant to get involved in national leadership movements, and we’re seeing more and more Asian American Christians taking these very visible, prominent roles. I’m very encouraged by it. And KALI, partially exists to help cultivate that. Because you have to see a possible self. You have to see yourself in these roles to say, I never imagined that there would be people in roles in leadership that the Lord is using in the spaces that are not just Korean American, not just Asian American spaces. And as the Lord convicts, certain people with the gifting they’re excited and they’re motivated. At least open to the idea of pursuing it.
SOLA Network: I think they identify one thing that Gods really speak to me a lot is that as Asian American, I think I struggle with my contributions have value, but does my existence itself have value? Just being who I am a value. And I think that an organization like KALI really validates that for a lot of people says, you just being you has value.
Alex Jun: That’s right. Yeah, I equate that to any good baseball team that wants to make it into the postseason, you cannot have an entire bullpen of right handed pitchers. I mean, at the most basic level of diversity, right, you cultivate left handed pitchers, because there’s no way you’re going to win with just right handed, you think about that. And you need the diversity of experiences. You need the immigrant experience, you need ethnic minorities, and, unfortunately, a lot of suffering and racialized trauma. But God can use that for good, because we’re able to code shift, and we’re able to understand other people who are in pain, because it’s our own lived experiences. What a gift to the church.
I remember hearing an example, at a large conference in this southern white man, very good preacher, but it was giving the example about perseverance and suffering. He talked about football. He talked about the fourth quarter. And I just I thought that was the oddest example to give. I mean, you speak from my own experience. But you can only speak to perseverance, to the extent that you’ve persevered and suffered. I don’t think too many minority ethnic groups would talk about perseverance, and talk about football, I think they would talk about their own lived experience of what it means to be minoritized what it means to be other-ized. And there’s a natural connection, of feeling like where I live is never home. We tie that in so naturally, with the gospel, to say the world that we live in, is not our home. And we know that both in an earthly sense, and in a spiritual sense. So immigrants long to go home, and we are all spiritual immigrants, and we longed to be taken home someday. I mean, That’ll preach.