How can you have confidence in the trustworthiness of the Word? What role does history have in our interaction with the Bible? In this episode of our podcast, Aaron speaks with Susan C. Lim to discuss these questions and many more as they relate to her new book, Light of the Word.
You can watch the interview below, on our YouTube page, or listen to it on podcasts.
Editor’s Note: Below is a lightly edited automated transcript of their conversation. There may be typos or grammatical errors.
Aaron Lee: Hi, everyone. This is Aaron for SOLA Network. I am here with author Susan Lim. Susan, it’s so good to meet you. I enjoyed your book. I believe my review is going to be up on our website by the time this video goes live. But would you please introduce yourself and your book to us?
Susan C. Lim: Sure. Hi, Aaron. It’s great to be here. Thank you for having me. Like you said, my name is Susan. Last name is Lim. A lot of people think that I’m Chinese American, because Lim can be Chinese American. But my husband is also Korean American. So yeah, we are, I guess we would be called 1.5 generation Korean Americans. And I taught for about 20 something years in higher education.
And right around COVID, as everyone did, I asked myself, Wow, life is short. What do I want to do for the rest of my life? And I love love, love teaching, and I love my students. But I thought maybe it was time to do something different. And always wanted to write this book. It’s been on my heart for a really long time. And I was grateful for the opportunity to do that. So I have two kids still at home. And I didn’t think I could write full time, teach full time, and be a mom full time. So yeah, I stepped down from my teaching position, which was really hard to do. And then I wrote the book, Light of the World, which is on the history of the Bible.
Aaron Lee: I loved your book. It’s kind of like, it’s not too academic. But it kind of presents itself as an academic book. You’re actually a historian, right? Is that what your work is?
Susan C. Lim: Yeah. So when I was an undergrad, my mom wanted me to be pre-med. And which I know it’s familiar for, you know, some people, but I remember taking O Chem and it was so hard for me. And I memorized the stretch structures like I was memorizing, like hieroglyphics. I didn’t understand how the mechanisms worked. I thought if I did become a medical doctor, I think I’d kill a patient because. But I fell in love with history. I felt like my life made a lot more sense when I understood the past. And many moons ago when I was in college, there were all sorts of riots about affirmative action. And Aaron, gave me so much more compassion for both sides, knowing the history of both sides. And I felt like you know, this is practical. I don’t know how I’m going to make money off of it, but it’s practical, in the day to day. So I finished my BA in history, and then went and got my Master’s and PhD in history.
Aaron Lee: I want to know how your testimony intersects with your work as a historian, because your book is about understanding the Bible, and having the Bible come alive and make sense to people. Can you share your testimony with us?
Susan C. Lim: Yeah, I came to faith when I was 17. And it was the summer-ish spring right before I went to college. And when I started college, once again, I wasn’t sure what I was going to major in, I kind of shifted around. But I fell in love with history, like I said, but I’m not one of those, like, super, like long term planners. And God’s only revealed the next step to me in bits. He doesn’t show me the whole plan. I didn’t think history would be woven into my testimony. But of course he did.
Yeah. And so later when I had all these doubts about the Bible, because I didn’t grow up with the familiar stories about like Jonah and the whale, or Daniel in the lion’s den. And when I started reading the Bible, after I accepted Christ in my heart. Aaron, I was like, people believe this, like we’re real. I was just floored by the fact that intelligent people would believe these stories to be true. And so I believed that the gospels were probably true. And, of course, I believed in a resurrected God. But some other stories in the Old Testament just seemed so dissonant with the New Testament.
So knowing the history behind, let’s say, the Pentateuch, and how it was, or like, even, you know, the Old Testament was written over a course of 1000 years, and that it was this long history. And it comports with the ancient Near East, that the writings were very much a part of the ANE, The Ancient Near East Culture, and yet the God that the Israelites were worshiping is an altogether different God.
And so I think my training as a historian made me appreciate the Bible. And then I was in a, I went to Berkeley for undergrad, and I was in a history class as an undergrad. And my secular non-believing professor would talk about the Bible like, like a good historical document. And that made me think, Wait, what, this has credibility? It’s not just fantasy?
Aaron Lee: So it came together for you almost in terms of like, oh, this is actual, real life, not just make believe, or just fables type of stuff. Is that right?
Susan C. Lim: Yeah. So one small example could be like the flood. So I was in a history class, and they were talking about the Epic of Gilgamesh. And it made me think, Wait, you’re right, if there was a flood, everyone would be talking about it. And everyone was talking about it. And so there are Sumerian and Akkadian and Babylonian texts that talk about the flood. But the way that they talk about it is different from the Bible. So like some of these other texts say, oh, like, the gods were really upset because their naps were interrupted, or you know, something. Or even like some of the other Ancient Near East texts give dimensions for a boat, so that they can survive like floods or like torrential waters. But the dimensions of the boat would not be able to sustain any kind of life. It’s more like a cube. And so it’s very unsteady. Versus like, the dimensions in Genesis have been used for other kinds of shipbuilding because they actually work.
So I’m like, Oh, my gosh, so yeah, everyone’s talking about it. But the Bible, it’s like, it’s good advice. It’s practical. It’s almost like, you know, when you like, Look read through, like Leviticus or, like, you know, God’s just like, don’t eat the fat portions or, like, you know, like, don’t eat these kinds of animals or like, get circumcised. Like, it’s all good for our health, like we can look back thousands of years later, that was actually like, medically, there was like a good medical reason, they were just doing that out of faith.
Versus like, you know, when the Ancient Near East text would be like, contrary to good health or like, sacrifice your children, you know, everything in the Bible has stood the test of time. Yeah. And it’s just something that makes you think, wow, it wasn’t fable, but it was true. And it was helpful. It was practical and it was divinely inspired.
Aaron Lee: So it sounds like when you made that realization, you obviously did a lot of research, it sounds like because your background as a historian would make you think, I guess probably harder than other people would, at least for me, as an average reader probably wouldn’t even think about some of these things.
Susan C. Lim: I’m sure you’ve done a lot of reading. If any of your listeners are watching this, too, I’m sure they care about stuff like that. And I guess, one of my books, because I’m in seminary right now. So I wanted to go back and study the Bible just for fun. And when I was a professor at Biola, the tuition was free. And so that’s why I started. And, you know, I love what I’m reading, but I know it’s not for everyone. And the books are really dense, and they’re hard to get through.
So you know, thinking of like, my friends who have, you know, two jobs to put food on the table. Or like, my really good friend who, you know, she just can’t find time to go to seminary. Yeah, but they might want to know, and so I was like, you know, in a way, that was my story, and with my findings in a way that, and I don’t know if you saw the book, but I do have a lot of footnotes, so people do want to go to those academic texts, they are there. If you just want like a quick like, hey, oh, I didn’t know that. Oh, like all four gospels, they don’t all say the same things. There are three synoptic, and there’s one different, and you know, why, and things like that.
Aaron Lee: Well, I do appreciate the work that you put into your research, and how you made things understandable in the book. You answered some of these questions, and I think it might be good for our listeners. Does history contradict the Bible? How can you answer that?
Susan C. Lim: Yeah. I, to be honest, before I answer that, I had that powerful salvation experience when I was 17. I knew that God was real because Jesus revealed himself to me. But I just thought, if I stayed in this space long enough, I’m sure I’m gonna meet intelligent people that don’t believe this wholesale because this is so disconcerting. And in a way, I kind of wanted history to contradict the Bible. Like, the more I studied it, I’m like, it never contradicts, the Bible never contradicts history.
And, in fact, it’s crazy how like, over and over again, like, in the 1940s, like the Dead Sea Scrolls out of nowhere, come out, and like, there’s this huge finding this treasure trove. And this whole entire scroll of Isaiah has been preserved. And you’re like, wait, what then, and the preservation of that scroll with the other scrolls that are like 1000 years apart, and they’re like, identical. You’re like, wait, if you really think about it, you’re like, Oh, if God created the universe, and you believe that, that’s easy for him to do, right? That’s easy. But when he starts showing off, and he starts, like making, you know, like, 1000s, of copies of the Bible, or have copies of the Bible, start comporting with each other. And then you have like, inscriptions that say, going back to like King David, oh, you have coins, or you have different kinds of like layers of strata of rock formation, and other kinds of like, you know, villages or towns that like comport with what we see and you’re like, oh, wait, there was a fire and then there was like pillaging and then there was like another city that was created in the layers that would actually corroborate each of the stories from archeology to history to whether it’s like, written or whether it’s inscription somewhere. Yeah, like the book talks about like each of the book of the Bible and how history really does corroborate with the Bible.
Aaron Lee: That’s good. I think that’s a better choice of words, to corroborate with the Bible. Here, I’ll give you another one. Is the Bible circular in reasoning that it is God’s word? In the book you say like, oh, well, the Bible says it’s God’s word, so it must be God’s word? But you can’t like you know, can you go outside of that reasoning, to confirm it?
Susan C. Lim: I think sometimes Christians can use circular reasoning. But I don’t think that the Bible itself is circular reasoning. And the reason why is that the Bible just claims to be what it is. And you know, like when Moses asked God, like, who should I say, sent me? I am, that I am. And that’s the heartbeat of the Bible. It is. It just claims to be God’s word. It never tries to prove it. It never says, Hey, let me give you proof. Why It’s not like a thesis, like when we try to write academic or work in the beginning, God created. So it’s the presupposition that there was a God, He created it. And he’s going to tell you what he did. And so I don’t think the Bible itself is circular reasoning. It’s straightforward. Yeah. It’s God’s word, and you take it or leave it. But the crazy thing is for anyone who’s like, I’m not sure if the Bible is real, I would really encourage them to read through it. There are so many people who come to faith just by reading through the Bible. And the crazy thing about the Bible is, it’s true God’s Word doesn’t return void.. And like, you know, Faith comes by hearing God’s word. And so it’s not circular reasoning. I think that Christians can have circular reasoning, where they’re saying, like, oh, well, all scriptures, you know, breathed by God, and useful for instruction and correction, and all of that. And so, therefore, it must be. But that’s not how the Bible presents itself. The Bible presents itself as there is a God. He’s telling a story about how he came to save humanity.
Aaron Lee: I feel like your book is for general audiences. Am I correct in that?
Susan C. Lim: Absolutely.
Aaron Lee: You’re not writing necessarily down or up towards people. I feel like they’re talking broadly to everybody. But I think for SOLA and for the purpose of our podcast, I want to give you the opportunity to maybe exhort pastors and preachers and how they wield God’s word, especially with what you’ve gone through, knowing that some people would wrestle with some of these things.
Susan C. Lim: Yeah, um, one of the stories that I write in my book is Billy Graham story. And I hate to say this, Aaron, but I know there are pastors out there who don’t fully believe the Bible to be God’s word. So I just want to start with that. And it’s what I call the second confession. So your salvation moment is the great and first confession. And that’s a gift from the Holy Spirit. And when we come to truly believe that all 66 books of the Bible are inspired, and they are God’s word, it’s what I call, the second confession. And, but it’s not just knowing because like, you know, it says, the demons believe, and they shudder. And so it’s a love for the scriptures. It’s that you know, it’s true. You know that God wrote it for us. And that he gives you by the Spirit, the ability to love it and live it out.
As I would say, if you’re in ministry, and you haven’t made your second confession, you’re in good company. Like Billy Graham was there before he made his second, what he called his, he called this tree stump confession. And he was the President of a Christian college. He was holding rallies, he was preaching. And he wasn’t sure if the whole Bible was inspired. And that’s where he diverged, you know, the very famous story with him and Chuck Templeton. And I would say, if you’re in ministry, and you’re not sure, then it’s hard if you’re like, senior pastor somewhere, and you don’t have a higher authority than you. But I would say like, start by, I would probably just get on my knees. And I will come and tell God, like, I’m not sure where to go from here. And I know that he will send people in divine appointments and books and resources to point to truth. And then I would say, the second thing is for pastors, and I feel like that too for me. I don’t feel like Aaron, I’m quite in ministry yet. I’m always gonna like, I don’t want to use that word. Actually. I’m just doing this for fun.
Aaron Lee: You minister to me with your book, but…
Susan C. Lim: You’re very sweet. Let’s not use the M word ministry. Okay. But I always feel like I need to live it out before I can preach it. And so I have the big joy of speaking at my son’s school’s chapel a couple times a month. And I speak to seventh and eighth graders. My heart is always like, Oh God, like I’m gonna be held accountable for this. And I would say to ask God by the Spirit to live it out for preaching it.
And then I guess second thing is to really know the context in which the passage was written. So hermeneutics, it’s so important. So of course, like the Bible is written, you know, to everyone, you know, it’s written for everyone, but the actual audience at a certain time was someone else, it wasn’t us. Is that important to know? I would say like, just doing due diligence is also really important.
Aaron Lee: That’s some good encouragement, but also practical advice. Okay, maybe one more question. And then we’ll have to end. But you kind of already answered it, too. I wanted to ask you if you can give encouraging words to those who struggle with and doubt the truth of God’s Word. And earlier you said, you know, just go ahead and read it. I actually noticed throughout your book, you’re constantly asking the reader, Hey, can you pray? You know, can you pray that God would illuminate his words to you? Or, you know, open your eyes to see? Yeah, can you speak maybe even just more personally, to anybody who’s struggling? And I think that’d be a great place to end our conversation.
Susan C. Lim: Sure. I would say if you’re struggling, you’re once again in such a good company. I’ve been haunted lately, Aaron, by John the Baptist’s story. And, you know, he did great things. And he saw amazing things, right? And he’s stuck in prison. And then he sends his disciples to ask, Are you the Christ? Or is there someone else? And you, like, be in that position? You know, I know that I was there at a certain point. So for your listeners, like you might be there. And you might be wondering, Are you the Christ? Is this really your word? Or is there someone or something else? And if you feel like you can’t go to him yourself, because there’s such a divide, like maybe John the Baptist physically couldn’t get to Jesus because he was in prison. Then go to whomever you can, like he sent his disciples. Go to your pastor, go to a friend, ask someone to pray for you. And then take the Bible, go to a quiet place, and I read this somewhere in seminary, my first year, it was a monk, who told his junior monk that all questions in life can be answered in a cave. And what he meant by that was in the quiet still space with you and God, the Spirit will answer those doubts. And I know God loves you. I’m saying this to your listeners. I know he does. He wants to meet you there. And so go to a friend. And when you feel like you can go to that place. That’s your “cave.” Bring your Bible, bring a journal, bring a pen, get ready to hear. And just ask and He will speak to you.
Aaron Lee: That was beautiful. Susan, thank you so much for sharing. I appreciate your book. I appreciate your humility. And I appreciate the wisdom that you’ve shared with us here. Thanks so much.
Susan C. Lim: Thank you so much for having me. It’s been such a joy.
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