SOLA Network had the privilege of speaking to Pastor Hanley Liu, English Lead Pastor of First Chinese Baptist Church of Walnut, a Chinese heritage church. He is also a SOLA Council member.
Hanley talked to Aaron Lee, social media manager at SOLA Network and a member at his church. Listen to this fascinating interview where they discuss:
- The hope and calling of the Chinese heritage church
- Hanley’s journey of faith and becoming a pastor
- How to minister to a Chinese heritage church
- Encouragements to young pastors
Watch the interview on YouTube, listen to the audio on Podcasts, or read the transcript below. Please note the transcript has only been lightly edited and may contain spelling or grammatical errors.
Aaron Lee: Hanley, we are here at the Asian American Leadership Conference. And I have a question for you. Many Asian American leaders have left the immigrant church to majority culture churches, or independent Asian American churches. But you are at a Chinese heritage church. What is the hope and calling you see for the Chinese heritage church?
Hanley Liu: Yeah, I think there’s a lot of hope and encouragement for the Chinese American church. I do think there has to be a sense of calling, especially if you’re going to be a leader in a Chinese heritage church. There has to be a sense of calling for you to want to be there. Otherwise, when the going gets tough, you’re going to get going and you’re going to go and assimilate into some other church. I mean, honestly, for me, my story is that there have been plenty of times where I’ve wanted to leave the Chinese heritage church. But one of the key reasons that led me to stay early on was I’m serving as a pastor at the church where I grew up at. So there’s a lot of, there’s a lot of gratitude, there’s all love, there’s a lot of understanding. These are my aunties and uncles who have raised me spiritually, who have taken care of me even physically. And so starting there, that’s where I started. But as I continue to serve in the Chinese heritage church, I think the Lord opened my heart to see the people as the people God has called me to lead, love, and shepherd. So I mean, that’s a short answer.
Aaron Lee: Let’s talk about that. Let’s talk about what it was like for you to grow up in the church. What’s your salvation testimony?
Hanley Liu: Oh, yeah. So I basically… my parents allowed me to go to church. I grew up in a Chinese family. So, Chinese immigrant family, I’m second generation, my parents immigrated here. They allowed me to go to church. So back then, the common practice at First Chinese Baptist Church was they would have someone pick up children. So these people would be a couple or an auntie and uncle that would go around and pick up children and bring them to church and bring them home. So that’s where it started. And then soon after, or a few years later, then my mom or my dad would bring me in and drop me off at church. So that’s basically what it is. I did not believe in Jesus Christ fully until my senior year of high school. I was just part of church. Didn’t really believe I enjoyed a lot of things about church. Got moved and touched at some of those overnight retreats, you know, where they do the emotional music and the speaker starts talking over the music. And so I said the sinner’s prayer probably a lot, a lot of times, every single summer, but didn’t get saved until my senior year. My parents went through a divorce, came from a broken family. I was angry, bitter, went the wrong way. And the Lord saved me. He showed me my depravity around my junior year, and then the rest is history.
Aaron Lee: Okay. I want more detail. What do you mean he showed your depravity? Like what caused it? Was it a sermon that you heard? Was it a counseling relationship that you had? What was it exactly?
Hanley Liu: Basically, I hit rock bottom. So I’m under drinking age. So I’m drunk, waking up on the bathroom floor of one of my close friends. But, how I dealt with my anger, my bitterness, I had no idea how to deal with my emotions or anything like that. Was sports, finding my identity in sports, being able to excel somewhat in basketball. Girls, you know, so dating relationships, and substance abuse. So excessive drinking, smoking cigarettes and a little bit of marijuana. A lot of that happened during my junior year of high school.
Hanley Liu: So by the time I was finishing up my junior year I looked at my life. And from a secular viewpoint, all of my friends were headed towards good colleges. They were taking their AP exams. I was headed towards nowhere. Not only that, but I was literally, you know, I knew that I was disappointing my mom. I knew that my mom was really struggling with everything going on with the marriage, and I was letting my mom down. And here I was being someone who’s abusing substances and now I’m waking up drunk on the floor, just feeling stupid, idiotic.
Hanley Liu: And the only hope that I could reach for is that I remembered all the times in church that Jesus Christ was preached, that the Bible was proclaimed, as the only way to find meaning in life, to find truth in life. And so the Lord saved me. Back then I was not a Calvinist. But you know, I went to Bible college… and I went to Bible college. Freshman year, I was introduced to John Piper, and his work I was introduced to Wayne Grudem. I was introduced to the doctrines of grace. And that’s when it all came together. That I was walking in my depravity, that I would not have chosen Jesus. Do you want me to preach the full gospel? I will, you know, that I would not have chosen Jesus no matter what. But once I was in my depravity, he showed me that the only hope was Christ and He rescued me. He pulled me out.
Aaron Lee: Oh, thank you for being open and honest. I didn’t expect you to share that story (laughing).
Hanley Liu: Yeah, maybe you guys are going to edit this out (laughing).
Aaron Lee: I appreciate that, though, thank you. Do you think that the Chinese heritage church has a special place in your heart because of your story?
Hanley Liu: It does have a special place in my heart because of my story. Because coming from a family that was somewhat broken, and it’s strange because my parents are back together now, but coming from a non-Christian home, the aunties and uncles became my spiritual parents. I mean, I saw people rally around my mom. When we were in financial need… I saw certain people take gifts, special attention to me, I was invited to other people’s families, fishing trips, or people would if they’re doing something for their son, they would bring me along. So it’s very hard for me to look at maybe the complexities of the Chinese church and just simply walk away from it, saying that, Oh, that’s unbiblical, or there’s nothing good there. Because I did see a lot of biblical truth being applied in the Chinese church.
Aaron Lee: Where did that biblical truth come from? Do you think they knew what they were doing?
Hanley Liu: I mean, of course, of course, we’re, we’re a Southern Baptist Church, you know, a plant in Southern Baptist Church. So I’m, I am confident, and I know for certain that the pastors who founded the church, the pastor who founded the church, as well as the leaders, wanted to make disciples according to the Bible, and wanted to raise us in truth. I think that some of the struggles growing up was, you know, Chinese culture or culture being mixed in… so it’s confusing. Certain things would come in as legalism, though it’s well meaning. Things like that. But you know, as we get older, we understand more of the complexities and we’re able to navigate.
Aaron Lee: Let’s talk about that, how you did grow older at church. The story about you becoming a pastor, I guess, is a different story, if you want to share that. So what I’m interested in is, what was it like to now pastor, these aunties and uncles that saw you grow up?
Hanley Liu: I think by God’s grace, you know, I always knew that I would never win them over with life experience. They’re always going to see me as the kid who grew up. I mean, they could see me as their pastor. But I knew that there’s, there’s going to be a decade or so if I’m going to pastor where I’m simply going to point them back to God, right? I’m going to point them to Christ and point them to the same God that they taught me. And in their hearts, they would see, okay, here’s a young man that represents us, that we invested in, and he’s preaching the truths that we have instilled in him — or the things that we would want our young people to learn. And somewhere along the lines, they’re like, Okay, he is teaching us the Bible, the Word of God, showing us new applications. So it was for me, my number one ministry to these older adults, who are my aunties and uncles — was always to simply feed them the word of God. Not necessarily counsel them with life experience or even give them any new advice.
Aaron Lee: Where did that preaching vision come from? Tell us about your vision for preaching, how God has grown you personally, and as a pastor during your time at a Chinese heritage church. Why don’t we just go ahead and just say, Yeah, tell me your pathway to becoming a pastor. And then how did your preaching vision come into shape?
Hanley Liu: I got saved, like, I shared that story. And how I got saved was when I went to my youth pastor, and I told him, I said, Look, you know what, I feel like I hit rock bottom. What can I do? I want Jesus but I’m ashamed. I don’t think I can live the Christian life. What can I do? And he told me to read Romans. Obviously, he told me the Gospel, he told me about the Lordship of Jesus Christ, but he told me to read Romans and read the Psalms. So I did.
Hanley Liu: And as I read Romans, I began to understand more about truth. And I got to chapter 12, where that’s when, in my heart I, some of the anger was dealt with in Chapter 12. And something happened to me where I said, if this is true, then I have to preach it. Because I spent my life being very vocal, like making fun of people, cussing, being a class clown. If I’m not ashamed to be an idiot for the world, who am I now to be afraid to proclaim something that’s true? And it just so happened that at that time, you know, my youth pastor gave me a Study Bible. And so I took a speech communication class my senior year of high school, and I asked that… you have to give three speeches, and I asked if I could preach. And so the English teacher, coming from a Christian school, just by God’s sovereignty, he’s like, yeah, go ahead. And so I just started teaching about Jesus Christ and why he’s real and why we need them.
Hanley Liu: And then my youth pastor, let me preach once to the youth group as a senior. So that’s when I basically said, God, I’m going to go to Bible college. I need to be equipped. I want to learn more about your Word. I don’t feel like I’m called to ministry. But if you call me I’m ready. That’s why I’m putting myself in Bible college, thinking I’m in control still. I still don’t understand God’s sovereignty at that point. I’m not a Calvinist yet, right? But once I learned about the doctrines of grace, I’m like, God, you know, everything’s about you. Nothing’s about me. What do you want me to do? And I think my sophomore year of college, I knew that God had called me to preach God’s Word and to be a pastor. And to learn what it means to be a preacher and a pastor. And so that was the beginning of it. And one internship led to another, and that’s my journey to pastoral ministry.
Aaron Lee: Now that you’re preaching, and you’re lead pastor, lead preacher, I guess we’ll just say, what does your preaching look like now compared to when you were younger?
Hanley Liu: Well, when I first started preaching those early years, and I’m so thankful that my youth pastor got me early and discipled me, I just thought, you know, a lot of preaching that we hear is boring. So I want to be entertaining, like a comedian. So just think of any comedian. But, you know, add the Bible. And you know, kind of make it funny. And so when I preached my first few sermons, it was more about presentation, communication, and just being on stage and being funny.
Hanley Liu: And he taught me very early that that’s not what preaching is about. Preaching is about preaching the Word of God in its context, getting the text right, and hiding the, you know, letting the Word of God speak, and the sufficiency of Scripture… and all of that. The high view of God, high view of Scripture. So very early on, I was already trying to imitate some of the best expository preaching we would hear. And that’s where I started.
Hanley Liu: And so I think that gave me a base point for trying to do… So you can name like, the best expository preachers out there, and I was trying to imitate them for a long time. But I was blessed by God’s grace at Biola University. I was exposed to hermeneutics, theology and languages as an undergrad. Went to seminary and learned more. And so that’s been my journey. I think in the last five years, I’ve learned to be more comfortable in finding my own voice and just not feeling like I need to match any model. So it’s hard for me to pinpoint at what year or when I shifted. So I’m still the same person that’s committed to grammatical, historical Cristo-centric expository preaching… what we hear on Sundays, but I think I’m a lot more comfortable in my own skin.
Aaron Lee: In relation to the Chinese heritage church and your preaching, how do you apply it to that specific context? You can talk about it in general, you can try to make it towards other Asian American churches. How do you apply that?
Hanley Liu: When I’m preaching to the English congregation at FCBC Walnut, I mean, I know what they expect. And I know what my heart is. So it’s a little easier just to preach the text. So whatever passage we’re preaching or a topic, and there’s two passages or whatnot, we’re basically explaining the Bible in its original context, trying our best to connect it and make it relevant and apply it to everybody’s life. And then obviously, I’m trying to then point it to Christ somehow, right, to find how that text points towards some type of fulfillment in Christ.
Hanley Liu: But I do think if it’s speaking to, in a Chinese heritage church context, or Asian American context, I do think when something in the text comes up, like honor/shame, that I can think of an example, I can bring it out in a way where it presents a text to an Asian, a person who grew up in immigrant home, or who’s Asian American, or Asian, North American can understand that context. I try to let the text do the work.
Hanley Liu: I know there’s been a lot of talk in 2020, 2021, 2022, about like, finding our Asian identity. So we can do that if I’m in a different context. But at FCBC, I tried to let the context drive it. So like even the Gospel of John is very circular. It’s not like an argument like Paul, very circular, where he repeats himself over and over. And each time he makes a point, he expands a little bit. That’s a very Asian way of communicating. Telling stories, going around, and then making a point at the end. And so I just let the hermeneutics, the texts, do that for me, rather than having to read you know, read some type of Asian experience into the texts.
Aaron Lee: So let’s say that you’re talking to the pastors right now, the preachers right now, who are at their Asian heritage church, Chinese heritage, church, whatever. Let’s just talk about, you know, longtime. Okay. Can you give them encouragement? And specifically for their preaching?
Hanley Liu: Yeah, I mean, you’re talking about the pastors who are serving in like, Asian, Asian Church?
Aaron Lee: Yeah. Encourage them to preach to their people, like how you tried to bring it into their cultural context.
Hanley Liu: Yeah, I would say, you know, 1 Peter 5 says, Shepherd, the flock of God, and one of the main ways we are going to shepherd is by feeding them the Word of God. If they are at an Asian church, you don’t have to try to be cool. I don’t know what nomenclature they use out there now, for cool, you don’t have to try to be hip or whatever it is. Because if your people wanted that they would not be at an Asian church. They would not be. And so I’m speaking, maybe to those of you like me, who minister in the immigrant context. Yeah, there’s some pretty cool Asian American churches out there. But yeah, they would not be at your church. So if they’re at your church, they’re already there. Not for, I guess, the superficial things, hopefully.
Hanley Liu: And so feed them, feed them the Word of God. And you know your flock the most. You know what they, what they’re insecure about, you’ve been with them in miscarriages, you’ve been with them in terms of premarital counseling, weddings, maybe some funerals, you’ve been with them when they cry to you because they didn’t get into college. So I’m just going all across. Or, or their parents, they got in a fight with their boyfriend or girlfriend or, or their parents got angry at them so you know exactly what they’re going through. Preach to them with the Word of God, just apply the text to them.
Hanley Liu: And I don’t think there’s any one formula because you as a shepherd are going to know your people the most. But don’t be afraid. And that would be my hope. And let the Word of God build your church. Don’t don’t fall into the, I guess, the folly of pragmatism where, where if you go on social media, or if you listen to podcasts, or if you read books, there’s going to be all types of, I think, recommendations of how to grow your church. And there’s going to be good stuff and there’s going to be bad stuff.
Hanley Liu: But we know that Christ, you know… Ephesians says… sanctified his bride with his Word, right? The Word is how he’s going to sanctify his bride. In other words, he’s going to build up the church. Ephesians 4, right, equip the saints for the work of ministry. And you do that through the Word of God. And so it’s the Word of God that’s going to build your church. The Word of God in the hands of the man of God or the woman of God in the right context, and feeding the people the Word of God and the people will grow in that. I think that’s how Jesus… I know for certain that’s how Jesus is going to grow his church.
Aaron Lee: Good word. One more, and we’ll end on this one. You got a young guy, preacher, maybe with the same background as you. How would you encourage him to start his preaching journey? And we talked about longevity, right in your panel, right? So, just from your experience, you know, what you’ve seen in the church and Chinese context. With all of the hurdles, you know, everything that goes through. How would you encourage that young guy?
Hanley Liu: You’re talking about like hermeneutics? (laughing)
Aaron Lee: All the above, all the above. (laughing) You can say pastorally and preaching-wise.
Hanley Liu: Okay. So set aside all the things, all the essentials, right, like learning hermeneutics, learning systematic theology, going to seminary. Again, trying to set that aside. I think, find someone who can mentor you in your preaching. So you need someone who can really give you critical feedback, as well as to guide you through. And you may not even end up preaching like that person. Okay? But if you can find someone who you can envision yourself preaching like, eventually you’re going to find your own voice. But in the beginning, find someone you would want to emulate their preaching.
Hanley Liu: But here’s another way. Sometimes that person is not available for you. You might be a solo English pastor starting off or solo youth pastor in an immigrant context where the other preacher is preaching in Korean or Chinese or Japanese or another language. So what do you do? Listen to preaching, sit on the preaching either through online or attend someone’s church or something, where that preacher kind of aligns with your personality. I would say that. There’s going to be a season where you’re going to be tempted to imitate this person. But eventually you have to find your own voice.
Hanley Liu: But in those beginning years… so if, if you’re a very passionate person, then find someone who’s a little bit more passionate. If you’re not so passionate, you’re more of like the Tim Keller type where you’re conversational, you know, listen to him. And, and I know, this is an Asian American setting. So yeah, find Asian American voices. Because you’re going to learn that these Asian American preachers, you can connect to them. They understand kind of what you’re thinking, how we’re thinking, all of the entire matrix that’s going on in a preacher’s mind, being Asian American. And so that’s why I’m saying put yourself under good preaching and good mentorship, and practice preaching. Find opportunities to practice because that’s the only way you’re going to get better.