In this interview, Aaron Lee speaks with Faith Chang, one of SOLA’s editorial board members as well as a newly published author. They discuss the premise of and journey to publishing Peace Over Perfection: Enjoying a Good God When You Feel You’re Never Good Enough.
You can watch the interview below, on our YouTube page, or listen to it on podcasts.
Editor’s Note: Below is a lightly edited automated transcript of their conversation. There may be typos or grammatical errors.
Aaron Lee: Hi, everyone. This is Aaron for SOLA Network. And I am so happy to say today that I am here with Faith Chang and we’re going to talk about her new book, Peace Over Perfection: Enjoying a Good God When You Feel You’re Never Good Enough.
Faith, it’s so great to be able to talk to you. This has been a long time coming. Can you introduce yourself and your book to us today?
Faith Chang: Yes, I can. Thank you first. Thank you, Aaron, for having me. So glad to be talking about this and being able to celebrate Peace Over Perfection, with you and with listeners.
So for me, I write from Staten Island, New York. That’s where I’m from. My husband pastors there. So I’m also a pastor’s wife at a Chinese immigrant – at least that’s how our church started as an immigrant church with English and Chinese congregations. I’m a mom of four. My oldest is 12. My youngest is five and I also work part time at WTS Books. And I’m part of the Editorial Board at SOLA. So that’s been a joy.
In terms of Peace Over Perfection. It’s a book that I wrote out of a lifelong struggle that I’ve had with perfectionism. Specifically perfectionism in the area of my walk with God and in the area of spirituality. And so it’s a book for those who struggle with anxiety and guilt in their relationship with the Lord. And the premise of the book is that as we consider God’s ways with us that there is just deep rest that we can find. And so in some ways, it’s a study on the character of God. What’s God like as he deals with us as in process and imperfect people.
Aaron Lee: I love it. Faith, I reviewed your book. It’s on SOLA Network, the review, I’ll link to it. And I was very happy to endorse your book as well. Thanks for involving me with that. This is not the first time that you and I have done a podcast interview. I interviewed you, what, like two or three years ago? What has happened between then and now? Because I don’t think you had the contract yet. Did you have a contract? How did this book come to be?
Faith Chang: Yeah. What happened between then and then? Yes, immediately what happened between then and now was after our first podcast interview immediately, I emailed Aaron was like, Aaron, I don’t know if anything I said made sense. And Aaron was so gracious and kind. I’m grateful. I was telling you, Aaron, earlier that I cut my teeth, with these interviews with you as a gracious and kind host.
And what’s happened since then was Yeah, I think, I mean, this might sound like cliche, but the book was definitely a God thing. I just had an idea one day to write about this struggle. And I guess it’s unfair to say, I just had an idea. I did write a blog post about it, maybe six, seven years ago, that gained some traction, and got feedback from that time that this was really a struggle that many people seemed to resonate with, and were having trouble finding help for.
And so, I mean, that was something I always knew, but I never thought like I’d write a book about it. Until just one day, I think, probably out of my own struggle. I was thinking, I think I just want to write something about this. And I came up with a whole list of actually scripture references that were just meditations that would be meditations on help for a spiritual perfectionist or a Christian perfectionist. And I made a goal for myself, without really thinking about getting a contract, made a goal to write two chapters just out of writing and a desire to write and work on something long term. And then when I was done with that, then I was like, well, maybe I’ll write a proposal. I submitted it to The Good Book company and they took a risk on it with me, which I’m really grateful for.
They also, as partners in ministry, felt like this is a need in the church. And I’ve been working with them to write that manuscript. And that’s been like a two year process. So it’s a lot that’s happened at the same time. It just, when people ask, like, how does it feel, your book’s about to launch, and I’m like, it just feels like being pregnant for a very long time. Like, starting from the inception of the idea all the way to the book release day. It’s kind of two plus two ish years. And so yeah, that’s kind of what’s happened since.
Aaron Lee: I was surprised. But then, like, I wasn’t surprised. I was like this makes total sense. But I think what’s genius is the whole theme of your book, peace over perfection – just the idea behind it. Because I think from what we’ve talked about, and what you’ve blogged about before, it just makes sense. Not like “Faith is imperfect. That makes sense that she would write about that.” (laughing) Just reading your words from before…it’s so good. Knowing about your kids and how you’ve talked about parenting, it makes so much sense. And I was so happy to see all of it play out in real time for me, because I was following you along. And I was just so happy.
The book did resonate with me. And I think a lot of it comes from being Asian American – but I think also on a deeper personal level of who I am, having that perfectionist tendency. So I wanted to talk to you about some standout things in your book. One quote that hit me was “Life is not a math equation.” And I remember you did some explaining on that in the book. Could you explain that to our audience? What made you come up with that idea exactly?
Faith Chang: Yeah, thanks for that question. That’s a great question. For me, I think during that section of the book, where I wrote about life, for the perfectionist. I think I wrote for the perfectionist life is math. You put in numbers on one side, on the other side, you get what you put in. And I was writing that as an exploration of how life with God is different than that and how Grace kind of comes in and messes up, at least in our understanding of what that equation would be, in a good way. That kind of equation. And I think for those who struggle, specifically with perfectionism in our spirituality, one thing that I tried to explore in the book and kind of really emphasize was that that desire is a good thing. When we’re desiring perfection of God commands. When we’re desiring holiness. When we’re desiring wholehearted love for God, that is a good thing.
But I think one thing that kind of ends up happening in our serious pursuit of obedience is as we’re taking seriously and this is something we should do the consequences of our actions, that the scripture say, We reap what we sow, you reap to the flesh, I mean, you sow to the flesh, you reap that. And scripture is really serious about the kind of the decisions that we make, we’re part of one body in Christ. And so every decision that we make affects other people. And so, for those who struggle with anxiety, and maybe guilt in our relationship with God, that sometimes leads to just a really deep fear kind of our deep desire to know God’s will and do God’s will ends up changing to a deep fear that what if well, then what if I miss God’s will or just paralysis of like, well, what if I’m, I mess it up? And I don’t obey? What if I sin?
And as I’m doing the things that God wants me to do, as a worship leader, I know you’re a worship leader. And that’s something that I struggled with too like leading worship, what if my motives, because of that, other people are impacted? What if I, as a parent, I’m not doing the things that God wants me to do in praying enough for them, or showing enough grace and then it ends up kind of derailing them? And so there’s this kind of sense of this is what I’m inputting, and then maybe if I kind of tweak it wrong, I have the wrong variable put in there or something like that, then and all this will happen. And usually it’s all bad things that will happen.
And so one thing that I’ve found deeply comforting, and in the scriptures is just thinking about the gracious sovereignty of God. And the grace is that God is both sovereign over all things and that His providence is gracious. And so we see that in humanity our story is obviously as Christians, not one is getting what we deserve. Even from the very beginning, Genesis, that promise is given of salvation, right? Or in our personal stories of salvation, I think we know and we would attest that we didn’t do anything to earn God’s favor, or to even want God, but he worked in us. So Ephesians 1, before the foundations of the world, like before I could do anything, right or wrong, God loves me, and he saved me. And so I can have deep assurance that in the details of my life, even if I mess up, God is able to use what people mean for evil for good, and how much more than as I earnestly desire to seek Him and obey Him, will he be pleased to just show his grace in my life and in the lives of those that I care about?
Aaron Lee: Yeah, I think you hit on a couple of things that resonated with me, too, in that section. God’s providence, for sure, and seeing that play out in our lives. And then also, I think, just being able to maybe accept God’s grace. I don’t know if that’s the right language, but like, leaving room for grace. I think that’s what you talked about. You can’t just keep putting in and expecting it to be perfectly equal. We’re supposed to have room for grace there.
There’s another thing that you mentioned. You said, “God loves sinners, not perfect people.” And I think you wrote that, it’s easy for us to know that as Christian perfectionists, but maybe not feel it. So I wanted to ask you – Why do you think that is, though? Why do you think it’s hard for people like you and me to know it? But not really feel it deep within our hearts?
Faith Chang: Yeah, that is a great question. And I think sometimes even it becomes an area of anxiety for Christian perfectionist. It’s like, I know, God’s love, but I don’t feel it. And then like, what’s wrong with me? Why don’t I feel God’s love, and then you just get anxious about it. And I think there’s many reasons why we can struggle to feel the love of God to personally experience the love of God. At least in our everyday experience.
I mean, one reason it could be like, it could just be things outside of our spirituality, right? Like our biology, we’re going through, or going through health issues that make it difficult or depression that makes it difficult to feel anything, including God’s love for us. It could be that our personal experiences, people who have had love, have had things done to them, or have experienced things that people call love. And they’re like, Well, if that’s love then I don’t want anything to do with that. And they kind of think like, Well, if God loves me that way, then it’s not really a good experience, like an addict, not something that you’d want, right? For example, someone thinks like, yeah, oh, it was love that made somebody I don’t know, in some relationships, maybe they might say, Well, I’m just saying this out of love, but really, it’s out of harshness and anger. And so that we might read, God loves us, and then imagine that, Well, God is, is just harsh with me, he’s angry with me, he’s impatient. And it’s because he loves me, things like that. It can be because of church experience, how we’ve heard God represented to us. , I think that really forms us and it could form us in a way that is conformed to the Word of God, and it can also form us in a way that is not conformed to the way of God.
And I think, sometimes it’s just because we can’t see God, I think the scriptures like there’s that mission, but that recognition of that reality like 1 John 1, it says, no one’s ever seen God, and I think that makes it difficult. But God speaks to all those things. No one’s ever seen God, but if we love one another, His love is made complete in us. So God speaks to us not being able to feel and see his love tangibly because he’s got a spirit. I can’t feel his arms around me when I’m feeling sad, I can’t always hear His voice. And so God says, like here is the body of Christ. The believers in our lives that show us love. And then as we experience that love we’re meant to recognize and see, wow, that’s the love of God. Or the Scriptures also reframe our understanding of love, by telling us stories of God’s love throughout his patience with his people, through how he receives prodigals and sinners. How Jesus deals with those who are sinful and feel unworthy of love.
And I do believe the Holy Spirit personally, helps us and answers our prayers, at least for me, I think I’ve experienced that in my life in praying, like, God, I don’t really feel your love. Can you remind me of your love? And sometimes I feel bad praying that like, you remind me again, and again and again. And I feel bad asking again, but as your child, I know you want me to know that you love me. So, can you? Can you remind me of that? Can you help me? As I struggle to experience it?
Aaron Lee: Man, that’s so good. I just want to say Faith, that I think what I really love about your writing, and even just you as you tell stories, and how you explain things, is that you’re able to like go through different levels or layers of deepness. I feel like you’re able to penetrate through the surface. I think what hits me all the time is how you’re able to talk about just your life, particularly when you deal with issues of motherhood or with your kids or whatever, and you’re able to see things on a deeper spiritual level. And I think what you just explained right now, and even with your book, you’re able to do all of that. I love just being able to hear you and see you do that in action.
You talked about your prayers. And I think that’s kind of where I want us to take and maybe end this conversation. Your book has prayers written inside of it, and I love them. I think it’s a great way to do it. And you specifically said that they’re able to express the tension that we feel. I think you talked about that a little bit. Can you explain that a little bit more? Because I think that’s actually a really big piece of your book – those prayers. Can you explain how you went about writing them, why you really wanted to include them? Talk about the tension that you feel, when and how that helps resolve or just get it out there when we’re praying. And then we can end by saying what your prayers are for the book in general.
Faith Chang: Writing those prayers, thank you for what you said about the prayers and enjoying them. I’m glad because that was actually one of my favorite parts of writing the book. So after each chapter, I have a prayer that’s meant to be for perfectionists, Christian perfectionists in different circumstances. So one of them’s like a prayer when you feel like you’re always doing the wrong thing, something like that. I should know. But I’m having trouble thinking of it. Prayer for all that is left undone for when you fear missing the way.
I’ve actually joked as I’ve been writing, half joked, like this book is for I’m writing this book for people who are anxious and guilty in their relationship with God – basically for me. I’ve kind of joked that it’s for me. But actually, I feel like I received as I was writing them, those prayers, as kind of a gift because I’ve had to turn back to them many times myself, as I’ve struggled in those specific circumstances.
And I think there’s just so much that, as we’re walking with God, that’s happening at one time. I feel like when we’re thinking, I think maybe that’s why you’re very kind in saying, oh, there’s different levels. I think, for me, I don’t know if I’m speaking different levels. It’s just that I’m like, there’s just so much happening all at once all the time, and how do I make sense of it all? Like how do I make sense of the fact that I’m called to holiness and God is holy, and He is gracious and He’s righteous, and he is merciful? And he loves me but I’m also having a struggle. I’m also struggling feeling that.
And I think one of the difficulties in writing a book about God is how… My desire is that people would know God more deeply and that the Christian perfectionist, we would find our rest in a person and not just in answers, either in terms of what I should do better, or even what I should believe better, and that’s really hard. How do you write about that in a book to be like, it’s well, and not make the person who’s reading it feel like, well, I just have to believe these things better, and then I won’t struggle anymore. With or feel like, Oh, I feel anxious, because I’m not believing enough. And I think what prayer does is, at least writing these prayers is the closest I can do to encouraging and giving voice to those who are trying to figure out how to come before God.
One of the major premises of the book is that as we come well, maybe the major premise of the book is that as we come to Jesus, he’s the giver of rest, like rest is found not by doing all these right things. Not by having sleep things sometimes it’s like, I can’t fall asleep so what can I do like sleep hygiene, make sure you’re not on your phones before this much time before and do this, and this and this, and take this and this and this. And I think for the spiritual perfectionist, that actually becomes a greater and greater burden. And so our rest is actually not found in doing all these things. But Jesus gives it to us and the desire, my desire in writing these prayers is to be able to again, like voice beyond an intellectual level, voice some of those tensions that we’re feeling and at the same time, do that in the presence of God. And that is my greatest desire for this book, that not only would people know God better, like intellectually, but really experience His grace and His peace and His rest as they come before Him as imperfect, in process people.
Aaron Lee: Well, Faith, thank you so much. Your prayer for the book has been answered – at least for me when I’m reading it. Thank you for pointing me to Christ and his rest in my anxious pursuit of perfection. And I join you in praying for everybody else that will read and check out your book, Peace over Perfection. Thanks so much Faith. It’s great to talk to you.
Faith Chang: Thanks, Aaron. Thank you so much.
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