How can we, as a nation, come together when we seem so deeply divided? In this insightful and thought-provoking interview, SOLA’s editorial curator Aaron Lee talks with Professor Matthew D. Kim to discuss his book, Preaching to a Divided Nation (read our review here), which he co-authored with Paul Hoffman. Professor Kim exhorts preachers by saying the power of preaching takes on a new significance in today’s rapidly changing and divided world.
In their interview, they discuss:
- Current political rhetoric and its impact on the current state of affairs
- The urgent need to seek Christ-like reconciliation even in the face of disagreement
- The importance of fostering understanding and empathy among diverse perspectives
Listen to their conversation as Professor Kim navigates the complexities of multicultural identities, especially within the Asian American context, and sheds light on the challenges and potential solutions for these communities.
You can watch the interview below, on our YouTube page, or listen to it on podcasts.
Editor’s Note: Below is a lightly edited automated transcript of their conversation. There may be typos or grammatical errors.
Aaron Lee: Hi, everyone, this is Aaron for SOLA Network. And today we have Matthew Kim. Matthew, it’s been a while since I’ve talked to you. Can you reintroduce yourself to us and then we’ll talk about your book, Preaching to a Divided Nation. (Editor’s note: Read our review.)
Matthew D. Kim: It’s good to be with you again. I’ve been recently transplanted to Texas, and my family and I moved to Waco in June of last year. So we’re now at Truett Seminary at Baylor University. And I’m teaching pastoral leadership and ministry here.
Aaron Lee: Yeah, I saw that move. So you really are covering the nation, I guess when you say, preaching to a divided nation. Can you give us an introduction to this book? And maybe you can use this question to answer it: Are we really the United States?
Matthew D. Kim: Wow. Well, I know that during President Barack Obama’s presidency, one of the phrases that he repeated often was basically, you know, there’s the red states and the blue states. But no, we’re the United States. And that’s the ideal. I think that was the original intention for there to be unity in this country. But as you know, there’s just so many things that we can’t seem to get along about and agree on. And one of the things that we think… Paul Hoffman and I, who co-authored the book together, we really want to see that we can be Christ-like and Christ-like toward each other, even when we disagree. And I think that’s part of the problem. We’re so quick to want to be right, and say that we’re right, and not willing to hear from the other side. And that has perpetuated in our nation, and probably pretty much the whole world. So what we want to do is not try to get people to agree, because that’s not always the end goal. The end goal, as Jesus pointed out in his prayer in John 17, is that we would be one. And one does not mean uniformity, as Tony Evans said recently on a tweet. Unity is not uniformity, it is simply that we can get along, that we can still fulfill the mission of God, even though we have differences.
Aaron Lee: Your book goes into detail about how we can promote unity in our congregations. But how would you answer people who say, hey, we just need to focus on the gospel, just preach the gospel?
Matthew D. Kim: Sure, I guess it really depends on what people mean by the gospel. And there is much division. And as you know, Aaron, in the last 10-15 years, so many people have been writing about what is the gospel, and articles, books, have been coming out… podcasts about that. And really, if you’re defining the gospel as the salvific work of Jesus Christ, and His perfect sacrificial life that he lived, His death, burial, resurrection, His ascension and eventual return, then I think we have a starting point to say that we are to preach the gospel. But even as we preach the facts of the gospel, we want to consider where people are. So when we say just preach the gospel, oftentimes, we just mean don’t consider race, don’t consider politics, don’t consider ethnicity. Don’t consider a class or gender. Just give them the gospel. And if that definition that I said earlier is your definition of the gospel, then of course we want to preach that. But if it’s really about, I want you to conform, and assimilate and be like me, and not really consider other people and their context, then I think that it’s difficult for me to say, just preach the gospel. We still contextualize the gospel in these different spheres of life for particular people.
Aaron Lee: Can we go off script a little bit and kind of talk about race? This is for SOLA Network. How does preaching to an Asian American context or thinking about Asian American ethnicity play into that thought process?
Matthew D. Kim: That brings us to a different book that we’ve talked about before with Daniel Wong on finding our voice for an Asian North American perspective. (Editor’s Note: “What Does It Taste Like?” – A Book Review of “Finding Our Voice: A Vision for Asian North American Preaching” and Interview) But I really think some of the issues that are predominating in Asian American culture is simply a reflection of what’s going on in the States. And, essentially that we are to think about… at least what I’ve been advocating for over 20 years… is that Asian American preachers actually look at what it means to be bicultural or multicultural. And that’s one of the absences and gaps that I’ve noticed in preaching in many circles. That we have been taught and trained in white institutions. And we have not really talked about race and ethnicity and what it means to have our Asian and American ethnicity, culture, all of that brought into the preaching moment for hermeneutics, and preaching. So those are some things I’ve been thinking about for a long time. And we’ve made a little bit of progress, I think we can do a lot better. But we are part of a byproduct of the American culture. And as well as whatever Asian ethnic background we come from, those two merged together, and it becomes a complicated process. So I don’t think we’re immune, we’re actually involved and we’re steeped in the same struggles that our white or African American or Latino American friends are struggling with, too. It’s just, we’re all divided in different ways.
Aaron Lee: I appreciate that. I know that you’re very good at talking about those things and putting it up front that, hey, this is an issue that we need to talk about. And that should play into our hermeneutic. In the book, you mentioned that we should see scripture through the lens of reconciliation. Why reconciliation? What does that mean, to see the entire arc of Scripture through that lens? And how would you say, maybe we should do that versus other other ways of seeing it, like how people would say to look at it through the lens of a kingdom perspective instead?
Matthew D. Kim: Sure. Well, we know from Genesis 1, Genesis 1 and 2, that pre fall, Adam and Eve were united with God, they were not needing reconciliation, because they were sinless. At that point, there was perfect union. But then once we get to Genesis 3 and the fall, from that moment on, history tells us, the Scripture tells us that we’re fallen, and there was a complete separation, and that we can no longer enter the Garden of Eden, in its perfect state. So we’re corrupted. And because of that, God has been on a mission for all these years, to reconcile people to Himself, as well as having people reconciled to each other. And so reconciliation is a complicated process, it’s actually very difficult. It requires two parties to be able to acknowledge sin, to confess that sin and to pray together, to forgive each other. It’s not an easy process. But that’s what Jesus has done for us. And we see passages like 2 Corinthians 5:17-21, talking about the ministry of reconciliation. So God has always been on his mission since the fall to reconcile us to himself as well as to each other. So there are… you mentioned kingdom? Yes, that’s one of the lenses that we can think about and talk about, and it has been addressed. We do mention Kingdom a few different times in the book. But you’re right, that the overarching theme that we go for in the book is reconciliation.
Aaron Lee: Yeah. I saw that it was mentioned early on. That’s why I said you looked at it through the lens of reconciliation early on. To go off script again, how have you seen that impact your own life? Either personally, or maybe your own preaching ministry? Or maybe your own students when you look at it through that lens, specifically?
Matthew D. Kim: Yeah, good question. I would say that some of the things that I’ve noticed in the culture of North American churches, and also Asian American churches, is that we are good at theologizing at a high level, and talking about doctrine. And these are all important matters, of course, and, you know, there’s first level doctrines that are… concerning the virgin birth of Jesus and the Trinity, and Jesus was perfect, and he was human and divine… those are all important aspects of what we need to teach. But I would say at the same time, that one of the things that we’re often struggling with to communicate to our churches, and I think it’s because we struggle with it as preachers and pastors, is that it’s hard to reconcile with people. And there are people that we don’t like, I’ll just be honest. There are people who don’t like us. And I still remember as a pastor, sometimes you know… I call them praying unholy prayers. And what I mean by that is praying that people will, you know, find another church more attractive than our own, and that God would maybe send them a different direction. But that’s part of being human. We’re not always going to love each other and like each other. And so this theme of reconciliation needs to come up often because we’re so divided. And we’re divided in our churches, in our pastoral staffs, on our pastoral staffs and different leadership aspects. So yeah, reconciliation, I think, is a theme that comes up pretty frequently in Scripture. And when it does, I think it’d be an opportune moment to speak on those things.
Aaron Lee: Okay, one more question until our last one. So you mentioned President Barack Obama’s presidency. But how do you see this book being relevant for the future? Let’s just put it out there. Why does this book still matter?
Matthew D. Kim: Yeah, well, I think division is not going to slow down. It’s accelerating. So what we’re talking about… when Paul Hoffman and I talk about these different isms, like classism, ethnocentrism, gender sexism, and politics, four of the common areas where we’re all struggling… there’s different issues that keep coming up. So this was not a book for just 2008, or 12, or 16, or 20, or 24. until Jesus comes back, we’re gonna see the struggles. So in that way… one thing I wanted to clarify, Aaron is, we’re not asking for preachers to think about this and preach about this every week that will be disastrous. That would be horrible. Rather, what we’re trying to encourage people to do is look at the passage that you’re preaching on. And if one of the isms does come up, that will be a helpful time to address it rather than shy away from it. But we’re not trying to create necessarily sermon series on all these isms. We’re not trying to preach about it every week, because it is such a battle to even preach about one of them. And maybe once a year or twice a year, as you prayerfully consider your text, and you talk to your leadership, you pray about it, you have the entire church pray about it even. And from that you’re able to discern whether or not this would be a good thing to preach about.
Aaron Lee: Yeah, absolutely. You are very for let the text dictate what’s going to be said from the pulpit. And we’ll talk about that in our next conversation, probably. But maybe one more question for this one. Can preaching really change people? This is really the heart of your book, right, is that we’re preaching for change. And is preaching enough? Maybe that’s the better question I should be asking: is preaching enough to change and to heal a divided nation?
Matthew D. Kim: Sure. Well, I don’t. I don’t think it’s enough by itself. And neither does Paul, my co author, we don’t think just preaching a Grand Slam sermon on politics is gonna save the world. No, that’s not how it works. But we do think that it casts a vision… as a leader, to be able to say, we might be divided on these different topics or issues, but we’re one church, and we’re one denomination, and we’re one, you know, etc. And then that that transformation that can happen, is really a result of leadership is good leadership. And saying, Here are the ways that we’re doctrinally the same. We’re united in these different things. And we give the examples of, you know, the great commandment, Great Commission. These are the two great commandments and the Great Commission, and others, that are the central backbone of the Christian faith. And from those, we’re able to branch out into these different areas where we’re going to be divided. And so preaching does not solve everything. It’s one aspect of leadership that helps us think about these things. And further, you might want to talk about these things in a small group. You might want to talk about these as you pray together. This dictates how we love our neighbor as ourselves as we go to soup kitchens, and help other people. So there’s so many different aspects to this. And preaching is just one aspect, and it’s really about being a good pastor, and pastoring your people so that you can have a more unified focus in your ministry.
Aaron Lee: Thank you so much, Matthew. My review is on our website. I’ll link to it. And it’s going to be a great resource for all of the pastors that we have at SOLA and anybody who is interested in this. And I think this combo will further help others as well. Thanks so much for your time.
Matthew D. Kim: Oh, I love being on SOLA and with you, Aaron, and I appreciate your ministry and what SOLA is doing on behalf of so many. So thank you for your time.
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