What does it look like to be a faithful Asian American youth pastor? How can youth pastors equip parents? What are the changes that Asian American youth ministries need to make as both immigrant and second-generation/third-generation churches in the present day? For some expert perspective, SOLA Editorial Board member Daniel K. Eng interviewed Dr. Danny Kwan, who has been leading family and youth ministry for three decades.
Listen in as they talk about:
- Stereotypes of youth ministry
- The lack of “lifers” in youth ministry
- The uniqueness of Asian American youth ministry
- Whether second or third-generation Asian American congregations should have youth ministries
- How to connect with teenagers
- Equipping parents to help them lead their children
You can watch their conversation below, or on our YouTube Page. You can also listen to it via Podcasts. We have also provided a transcript below. Please note that it may contain spelling and grammatical errors.
Daniel K. Eng: Well, hello, everyone. This is Daniel Eng here at the SOLA Network. And I have with me Dr. Danny Kwan. He has been in ministry for three decades. He’s leading family and youth ministry at Yuong Sang Presbyterian Church in Pennsylvania. He is also a Ph.D. and teaches university courses at Eastern University. He’s the author of three books, including A Youth Worker’s Field Guide to Parents and a book about mission trips as well. It is my privilege to be sitting with Danny.
I’m so grateful that we can have this time together. And one of the things that was intriguing to me was that you’re a ministry veteran—you’re a lifer for youth ministry. So I’d love to hear about your journey with youth ministry. How do you get involved? How’s it been so far?
Danny Kwon: So I serve in a Korean American context. And at least on the East Coast here, we have a couple of seminaries in Philadelphia that a lot of Korean Americans attend. And so while they attend, they usually do youth ministry as what they call a jundosah, which translates to evangelist.
And after seminary, I did some more studying, and then I wound up taking a full-time youth ministry position. I really didn’t expect to do youth ministry for 30 years. A lot of my friends went into church planting or became senior pastors. For me, it was just about pastoral and professional development and training.
I’ve had some opportunities to do youth ministry outside my church. I worked for a company called Youth Specialties. And I write and work for this company called The Youth Cartel presently. And so those kinds of professional pastoral ministry opportunities and development in my life fueled my love for youth ministry, both in the local church and also working and training and teaching youth workers outside the church. That led to more studies, doing a PhD that focused on innovation about how churches innovated in doing youth ministry paradigms. So again, just so many things related to the youth ministry field fueled my calling and passions in youth ministry like in my studies, and so it just happened.
That first five years after seminary is critical for young pastors. Your first full-time position, whatever it can be—whether it’s youth ministry or assistant pastor—you kind of begin to form your calling and your passions. And God brings opportunities. And for me, it just happened to be things in youth ministry, and hat led to five years becoming almost 30 years.
Daniel K. Eng: You know, as you talk about that, I realized that you hardly get a lifer when it comes to youth ministry, someone who has been youth ministry, their entire pastoral ministry career. I think part of it has to do with churches and people thinking that youth ministry is like a stepping stone kind of ministry. And then, sometimes I remember even as a youth pastor getting comments like “when are you going to be a real pastor?” and things like that, and so how would you respond to that?
Danny Kwon: Yeah, I mean, it. I don’t, I only expect, like, I’ve trained 28 seminary interns, Bible, college seminary interns over 17 years. We started a program in 2004, to bring in interns under my care and at our church, and I don’t expect them to all be lifers in youth ministry. And definitely, there’s a lot of stereotypes about youth workers. We’re immature. We have goatees, we can’t manage money. We stink at church administration, and it’s a stepping stone.
I’m going to talk about longevity and ministry (I think we’re going to talk about that), but in any ministry, it’s hard and difficult. And just having that real, personal and pastoral theological framework of, hey, my identity and my worth is in Jesus Christ, who I am is in Jesus.
And, when Paul talks about how he could brag about how it was credentials and superiority, but everything’s nothing compared to knowing Jesus Christ. That’s how I’ve taken this calling in the youth ministry. Yeah, sometimes people look down on it. People think it’s a stepping stone.
Even in my church, after 28 years of being at one church, whenever we get a new assistant pastor, I always kind of sense, just in my feeling, that there’s always a little feeling out with a new pastor. They’re like, what’s this old guy doing in youth ministry? Is he a loser? Is something wrong with him? Why is he still doing it? And again, having that personal identity in Christ, and who I am, is in Jesus, and I’m loved by Him. My worth is fully in him, that keeps me grounded and secure, and my position and who I am. And, and, again, it’s a, it’s a calling to that personal identity in Christ, but also feeling called to loving teenagers and their families.
And part of the reason of staying in it so long is my role in itself has changed from just being a youth pastor to finding places to work more with parents, and volunteers, and adults. And as I’ve been at my church longer, being part of more integrating the senior leadership of the church, and things like that. So I found ways to reinvent my role and find things that just fulfill my calling in ministry.
Daniel K. Eng: Well, I’m encouraged to hear that, and I’m currently you have this great attitude about your ministry and the kingdom work that you’re doing. And you’re investing, you’re making disciples,. And it’s not just the students, but it’s also their families as well.
So when I was a youth pastor, there wasn’t much in terms of resources for Asian American youth ministry when I was serving in the Chinese church that I was at. So I googled Asian American youth ministry, and I found your articles. And so thank you for that, by the way. You were speaking to some of the things that I was dealing with, and so I filed your name away.
And so I want to hear from you, what are some distinctive things, especially for youth ministry, to Asian Americans in the immigrant kind of immigrant church model where many of us are ministering? What’s distinctive that maybe we wouldn’t have been able to find in a book generally about youth ministry?
Danny Kwon: Yeah, well, there’s a book. It’s a little bit dated now. But DJ Chuang wrote a book on Asian American Youth Ministry. He edited the book, and a lot of different people contributed chapters to that book. I contributed a chapter. And I think it’s a very important good book. He also wrote a book on second-generation English-speaking Asian American ministries. And then a lot of the books that I’m reading specifically are about Asian American ministries, Dr. Ben Shin, from Talbot Seminary, and Ken Fong wrote a book.
So again, it’s just more about understanding the context of Asian American ministry, and specifically to Asian American youth ministry,it changed a lot. I know we talked about a recent podcast that SOLA did about Silent Exodus versus the Silent Divergence. And that’s something I’ll talk about in a little bit.
But specifically, always one of the big issues has been the bicultural Asian/Western American identity of teenagers and their struggles with their bicultural identity. And I think, naturally in their adolescent teenage development, when they hit that 12- to-18-year-old range, especially more recently the idea of race and culture and ethnicity with the politics of the day. I see more recently kids these days, facing issues of race and culture in their schools, which are predominantly White, at least here in the Philadelphia area. And so again, the issues of race, culture is a big thing.
And along with that, the value of education and the pressure of success. Mental health in general and in youth has become a big issue recently. But because in our Asian culture, it’s still a myth and a lot of shame involved in that. How do you deal with that? And how do you make that more of an open topic in our youth group?
And again I would encourage everybody to listen to that silent divergence article. I see a lot of Asian American churches coming-of-age and I used to serve in a, I still serve an immigrant church where Korean language is dominant. And the parents are more Korean speaking. Youth Group is separate. It’s in English with their parents worship in Korean.
My role in my 30 years, for a long time, in the immigrant church was I would say, it was a lot like a social worker, you know. We were there to serve the teenagers and minister to them and disciple them and take them on mission trips and all that stuff. But also with the families and parents, helping them assimilate into schools. When parents had trouble at school with their children’s grades, mental health issues, we would go help them.
One of the more popular things I did over the years was a financial aid seminar in Korean language for Korean speaking parents. Even for me who grew up here, financial aid is like hieroglyphics. It’s like, impossible to understand. And let alone immigrant parents. We used to take–a great discipleship event was taking students–to college tours in the summer, we go for like a week, we go to Boston, we go down to DC, stay at hotels, visit colleges, because immigrant parents were, a lot of times blue collar workers had their own businesses were busy. You know, they couldn’t go on ski trips, couldn’t go on ice skating. The retreats were really big.
But your silent divergence article where kind of podcasts were talks about the new immigrants who are more equipped because of computers and Googling, they don’t, they don’t need my help as much in registering for schools and learning about financial aid and, and they they are more, “westernized,” American eyes. So they take their kids on college tours. They know what SATs are, they know how to get their kids prepared for SAT. They know what college activity what activities they need to send their kids to college and have good resumes and, and college, prepare for college.
And so my big concern and what I’ve been an “evangelist” for is really more family and intergenerational ministry, ministry to parents. And there’s been all these statistics: Barna Group, Fuller Youth Institute, talking about kids after they leave youth group when they go to college, and they become secularized.
But my big mantra and concern is that they’re not being secularized after they leave youth group, but they’re being secularized in high school because of their parents. It’s because of the lack of family ministry, and parenting ministry. And a lot of youth groups, American immigrant church, we talk about how youth ministry is to walk alongside parents. And then the old immigrant church that I used to minister in, the church was the center of the immigrant church, and parents just sent their kids. But now, with the second and third-generation parents, they have so many more options. Church is one of many good options.
I’m not saying they’re, they hate the church or abandoning the church, but we’re competing with sports, music, camps, and summer programs. And, where I wrote a book about short-term missions. I’ve taken 50 short-term mission trips. we used to take 100 kids every summer to four different mission trips for community service. Well now, these second and third-generation families are finding new ways to do community service and different things for their kids to be active.
These are all good. I’m not saying they’re bad. But how do we have parents continue to make church an important place in their lives or their teenagers, and make church a priority, and live out Proverbs 22, and Ephesians 6, Deuteronomy 6? This evolving emerging thing that I’m seeing in the immigrant and now second generation, third generation church.
Like I don’t need to do college tours anymore. Again, it was a great discipleship activity, taking 15 juniors before their senior year, a week in Boston, visiting colleges, spending time, praying, seeing colleges, and really discipling them while we’re seeing colleges. And now they go to college tours with their parents, because their parents are more westernized, and, more understanding of the culture. And so how do we disciple and minister and equip parents as part of our youth ministry? Sorry, that’s a lot. That’s a lot. Yeah.
Daniel K. Eng: This is fantastic. I love this. And it sounds like you’re seeing the immigrant church develop or change, and you’re having to change with it. What you did before, you can’t do that. You can’t do it the same way.
Danny Kwon: This morning, actually, I was talking to DJ Chuang, who wrote a book on English-speaking Asian American ministries. And, this is kind of the context that I’m really talking about. And like, for example, the Korean American church, when I see second and third-generation churches that they all speak English, where language is not an excuse anymore. Why are you even having a separate youth group? I don’t think you need to do it.
And I’ve been 30 years in an immigrant church, doing a separate youth group. Parents are worshiping in Korean; we’re worshiping in English. I think there’s an important place for that. I understand why we’ve done it. But where language is not an excuse, the research from Barna Fuller, the biblical data, is saying that intergenerational ministry is the way to do ministry. The research is showing why kids are leaving youth group after they leave youth group and the important role of parenting in the lives of teenagers.
A recent book by Christian Smith, Amy Adamczyk, Handing Down the Faith, talks about the importance of parenting and raising teenagers of faith. It’s kind of a research book. It’s a little nerdy, but it’s a really great book. This is a book about good parenting, and most parents have a hard time parenting. I raised three teenage boys. I always say raising teenagers was the hardest thing I’ve ever done. And I have good boys. I had good kids, and was the hardest thing I’ve ever done. So how do we help and equip, and walk alongside parents?
And I see, especially for the Asian American church, when language is not a barrier anymore, that youth ministry has to become more intergenerational, more family-centered. Working with parents and ministering to them has to become a vital component of it.
And that’s where, I’ve seen the biggest emerging direction. It’s still new and fresh. I’m in the East Coast. So, when I see West Coast churches, I do know that they’re more “advanced and developed,” have more pure English-speaking churches. Talking to my friends who serve in these churches, I know it’s hard because a lot of my generations, who are second generation, who grew up in the immigrant church, we’re so used to having youth group separate and apart. And so I’m not even used to sitting in worship with my own children.
And when my children were teenagers and sat with me and worshipped, it felt like they would come out of worship as if I had choked them to death. They’re like gasping for breath, “Oh, god, that was horrible. It was hard. It was so difficult.” It’s just worship! But, they’re not used to sitting in worship with their parents either.
Daniel K. Eng: I appreciate the word about intergenerational ministry. It’s especially timely with Father’s Day coming up and just kind of encouraging our fathers to really lead their family as well.
Danny Kwon: Yeah. And it’s not easy. It’s, not easy. But I think for youth workers and the church, Asian American church, I hope it’ll become a priority. I am. You know, in Joshua 2:10 It says, the next generation will forget about the Lord. And I’m afraid that, my generation was so involved in the church, and the immigrant church. But I’m worried about this. As I become a parent, and a lot of my peers had become parents. Are they raising their kids in faith? Because we have so many other options, again, sports, music, yeah, camps, and so many things competing with church and even like, Friday night, youth group. You know, there’s so many things that compete with that time for our kids.
Daniel K. Eng: You know, as you’re talking about parenting, I mean, how, what are some encouraging things that you say to parents of teenagers, especially if they’re immigrants, how do you encourage parents?
Danny Kwon: Oh, I, first of all, we, we never shamed them. We recently during, as COVID has gotten a little bit better. You know, I go to the Korean market. And I see a lot of the parents, and they’re like, running away from me hiding. It’s the pastor. Oh, no, he’s gonna shame us. And I make it a point never to shame parents. You know, I always tell them, “parenting is hard.” I love your kid. And they’re like, “Are you sure?” And I’m like, “You know what? When it’s not your own kid. They’re in my ministry. It’s easy to love them.”
I know, it’s hard, raising teenagers, just developmentally, who they are. Their natural inclination to rebel against parents developmentally, developmentally, their rebellion, their independence. It’s hard being a parent of teenagers. So, we really try to be a ministry that is open and authentic, sharing our struggles. One of my children had a mental health struggle as a youth group student. Now he’s graduated from college, but we’ve gotten this permission over the years to share openly about his struggle. And we share a lot about in in our Korean American immigrant church, and that’s opened up the doors to a lot of parents Like, I’d say in 30 years, the the last 25 years, we’ve sent five kids to a mental health clinic that’s in our town. But in the last five years, we’ve probably sent 25 students to this mental health clinic for inpatient or outpatient services. Just because the parents know we’re open about it, we talk about it, we don’t make it a shameful thing.
We have parenting seminars, joint prayer meetings with kids, parenting events, we still do the financial aid seminar, but not in Korean, but in bilingual. For example, the, the event that we do for parents, we have about 250 parents, we have a pretty large youth group. And if we do something, let’s say on raising your teenagers, the seminar, probably have about 25% of the parents.
Today, I heard a statistic from Orange ministry, they produce this parent cue worksheet that you’re supposed to hand out in churches, and they survey churches, and they say, only 10% of parents use it, to raise up their kids. So made me feel better. You know, we get about 25%. But just in parents knowing that we’re caring and ministering, and that opportunities for parents. And I tell a lot of young youth workers, be diligent, be consistent, be authentic, and open, continue to have these things for parents training, communication, events. This is my wife–who’s a psychologist and therapist knows it–she says when there are glitches, like, for example, this is an Asian American thing. But we had parents, their two oldest kids got into Harvard, and their third child was getting C’s. And, but that was a glitch. That was something they were struggling with. And they knew, hey, we’re there for parents. So they came to us, when a mental health crisis comes up, when the kids are on their computer too much. Parents know, Danny and his wife care about parents, they communicate with parents, they have events for parents, and when there is a glitch, they might not come, they’ll be the 75% who don’t come to any parenting event. But if they have some issue, if they have a struggle, they always know that we’re available. We have every Sunday, from two to four. Since my wife’s a therapist and a psychologist, every Sunday, from two to four, we say you have can get family counseling on Sunday, two, three and four o’clock, you can sign up with a slot with my wife, as a family. Most Sundays, we won’t get anybody. But when there’s a glitch, when there’s an issue, parents know we’re there and available and open to them. So we’re just giving them that opportunity. And again, that openness and just caring for them. Hopefully that’ll be a channel where God can use to give us the opportunity to minister to them. So I just encourage young youth workers and working with parents it’s, it’s can be a desert, it can be seen one fulfilling and, and useless sometimes, but I really do believe in this philosophy of–what my wife calls–glitches. You know, when there’s a need that arises. If they know we’re open and caring for them, that they’ll come to us.
Daniel K. Eng: And you build that trust with them. I’m encouraged to hear about the family counseling. Your wife is a mental health professional, and it’s great. It’s great that you’ve providing that that service to the families at your church and really serving the church that way. I’m encouraged to hear that. So, Danny, you’ve been in ministry decades. I would love to hear some secrets of longevity. What are some of the things that you’ve learned over the years? Some lessons that you that you can pass on.
Danny Kwon: You know, Daniel, ministry is hard, any ministry: senior pastor, assistant pastor, ministry, especially during COVID. But even before COVID, I always tell young youth workers. When I was young, there was not a day that didn’t go by that I wanted to not wanted to quit. As I got older, probably every week, got a little older, every month. And then, about six years ago, I did get a new senior pastor, I had a great relationship with my former pastor. And this new senior pastor is a great man, man of God, great pastor. And he came from the mission field, and he was a great pastor, but again, starting a new working relationship with a new senior pastor, as great of a man he was, man, I understood what it was to be like a young youth worker again, trying to develop my relationship with a new senior pastor, trying to gain his trust. Him– kind of understanding what I’m doing, and questioning some of the things that I do.
And, ministry is hard. And I think, for me, the greatest key for me, was what I said earlier, was having healthy, pastoral and professional–I guess I would call it a theology or framework. But really, what it was, is my identity and worth, rooted in Jesus Christ, that I’m loved, cared for, that nothing can take away my relationship with Christ. You know, that Jesus holds me dear. Because, again, in ministry, there’s criticism, antagonists, I talk a lot about antagonists in ministry, in youth ministry. You know, I personally think youth ministry is the hardest because you have stakeholders that involve church leadership that you have to please, parents who are your critics, and then teenagers. And just as one example, I always give a Wednesday or Friday night Bible study, small group, a teen doesn’t like it doesn’t enjoy it, goes home and tells his parents, parents get upset, calls the senior pastor or a church assistant pastor, and then now, your senior pastor or assistant pastor or church leadership, calls you and says, “What’s wrong? What happened?” And then this parent is upset with you. And then this teenager is upset with you, all because of one bad lesson. And, man, as a young pastor, even now, there’s a lot of times I tried to go to sleep at night, and your mind is just rattled, and something’s bothering you and, and just having that good theology, personal, professional theology that, hey, my identity is in Christ, and my worth is in Christ and I’m loved by Him. I think it’s been everything to me. It’s in ministry is just hard, and you preach a bad sermon. Again, a parent yells at you, your senior pastor question is what you and this is against, specifically as a youth worker, but just in general in ministry, it’s so hard and just to have that peace and, and foundation in Christ has been, transformational for me.
And then along with that, I think, just a good network of friends? A lot of people say, you gotta have friends who don’t care about who you are. Don’t care about titles, your titles, your degrees, what kind of church you serve in. We have this breakfast, called off site food connection, where I meet with a couple pastors. And our number one rule is, you can’t talk about ministry. And it’s just over food, and we just meet and hang out. And of course, we talk about ministry, but it’s kind of like an unwritten fake rule that, you’re just there to hang out and be yourself and be authentic.
And I think that’s always been important for me to really have that. And then over the years, finding ways for professional and personal development, for me, that was studying, going back to school, finding some good books to read. I know you did a DMin and PhD, but I think going back to school is, is a great way to keep yourself fresh and vibrant in ministry. Just finding some ways to develop, pastor conferences. You know, again, reading some good books and things like that has been important. But I would just go back to that. I don’t know how it happens. It’s a spiritual process, but that healthy identity in Christ for young pastors, and, and again, I try to raise up a lot of young Bible college and seminary students 28. Now, over 17 years, and, again, it’s hard to like, like, teach it. But I just try to model it and emphasize it. And a lot of times, they graduate from seminary after four years with me, and they go to their own ministry. And they always come back and they say, “Danny, now I understand what you’re talking about.” Because, when they’re interns, I kind of protect them and shield them from some of the difficulties of ministry. But it’s, I think it’s really important to have that healthy identity and foundation personal in Christ.
Daniel K. Eng: Well, that was encouraging to me, even as a, as as a pastor and a professor here just to be able to connect with people and not have to worry about putting on my degrees or my titles, just just have friends. And really making sure that I have community as well. Yeah. I’m encouraged about the legacy that you’re leaving, Danny, you’re training all these, all these interns, and you’ve mentored so many people and that has been a service to the church, not just Yuong Sang, but also just the church at large. Your publications, and the way that you are investing in people. I’m grateful for you. Hey, thanks a lot for this time. This was really good to to pick to pick your brain and to and to hear about some of the lessons you’ve learned. And so I’m encouraged. God bless your ministry. And and thank you for this time that we can we can have to chat. Alright.
Danny Kwon: Thank you, Daniel.
Daniel K. Eng: Danny Kwon of Yuong Sang Presbyterian Church, everyone. All right. Take care.