SLP EP 10: Adoption and Asian American Formation

Kristen Whitmore

Hello and welcome to the Sola Network Leaders’ podcast where we amplify voices of pastors and ministry leaders shaping a gospel future for the emerging generation of Asian Americans and beyond. We hope you enjoy hearing different perspectives from various ministry leaders throughout the U.S. And my name is Kristen Whitmore. I’m here with my pastor, Wilson Wang of Renew Church OC. And we have two friends with us today, also a part of our church and also ministry leaders, Jamie and JJ. And today we’re going to have a conversation about ethnic identity, the journey that Jamie and JJ uniquely have been on. They’re both ministry leaders leading younger generation in college ministry context. So we’ll talk about those things. But first, I’ll let you guys introduce yourselves. Jamie, can kick us off.

Jamie Lam 

Sure. My name is Jamie, and I’m on staff with CREW, specifically in our contextualized ministry called EPIC, working with Asian-American faculty and students, really talking about this exact thing of what it looks like to be doing faith, culture, and mission.

JJ Raymond 

Yeah, my name is JJ Raymond and I’m on staff with crew also context, Christ ministry, athletes in action. And our heart is to empower athletes and talk about how does their faith intersect with their sport. And we’re really excited to be here with you guys today to thinking about how does like ethnicity, culture, adoption really playing to our faith for me, trans-racial, adoptee, Korean-American. So we’ll get into that more, but this is really excited to be with you as we discuss this and process together. Yeah.

Wilson Wang 

Yeah, JJ, remember, I mean, I’ve been blessed to know both of you guys for a few years now. And I remember serving at, with you, JJ, at a men’s retreat. And we were just hanging out late night, eating popcorn, ramen. And I asked you about your ethnic identity and how that plays into ministry. And at the time, you said, you know, because you were adopted by a white family, you said, I feel like I don’t identify as Asian American and I’m like this Asian American I’m like this white guy trapped in the Asian American body, you know And then it was amazing that years later when I asked you about about that and that story There was a totally different like formation of your Asian American identity into who you are in your ministry So wanted to hear like that you kind of retraced that journey with us. Like what was the what was it like to be Asian American as you grew up in a white Armenian family in your city? And then when did that formation start happening later on?

JJ Raymond 

Yeah, and that I remember that conversation very vividly, Wilson. Yeah, and I remember that was some of the first time that someone asked me like, how does it feel to be Asian American and adopted? And so, yeah, I remember ever since I could remember noticing just a distinct difference in my family being a transracial adoptee, just even define like transracial adoptee. What that means is like my ethnicity, my race being Asian, being Korean American, my parents do not share that with me. So when think about transracial adoptees, it’s a growing population and it’s something that we’re even trying to figure out as adoptees, like where do we fit in with our family? And that’s something I still continue to stay wrestle with even from early childhood of never understanding like, why doesn’t my mom and dad, why do they not look like me? Why don’t my sisters look like me? When I go to school and there’s a parent teacher conferences or the back to school nights and my teachers are confused of like, your last name’s Raymond, but wait, when I meet your parents, like they’re not Asian. So as a child really trying to process of like, how do I even ask some of these questions even at an early age? know, of like, I don’t want to show ungratefulness, so how do I even ask these deeper questions of how do I even begin to put feelings to words and try to understand what it means to be a transracial adoptee?

Wilson Wang 

Can you just kind of bring us into that moment of like back to school, your parents are there, like what were some of the feelings that came up or thoughts that came up in those like, in that tight moment right there?

JJ Raymond 

Yeah, some of the first initial feelings were, I would use the word embarrassment, not embarrassment of my mom and dad, but more embarrassment of myself of like, what do I have to explain to others? Or I feel embarrassed, I even have to ask this question of why do your parents look like you? So I think initial feelings were a lot of embarrassment and probably a lot of wishing things were different for myself.

Wilson Wang

Yeah, yeah, and I think that might be almost a little bit of a denial of like, internally just saying, I’m this way, instead of having to pull both together, especially when you’re so small too. It’s hard to do that.

JJ Raymond 

Yeah, I think it was really hard. think even as young kids, like we have a lot of these emotions and feelings and not really knowing having like the right tools even process some of those. So yeah, it was definitely a denial, but this tension of like, what do do with these feelings and experiences? Yeah.

Wilson Wang

So, how did some of that resolve as you were getting older, let’s say college or even into young adult life? Do you feel like there was any resolves in that in into your twenties, early twenties?

JJ Raymond

Yeah, I’d say college and definitely, I would say actually post college was very formation for me. Actually, it was the same year you asked me that same question of like, Hey, how does it feel to be a transracial adoptee and be a follower of Jesus and also be Korean. And those that same year were actually why I’m so excited to be here too, is because Jamie was some of the first people in my life to really help me process of like, how are you navigating this and how’s your faith intersect with it? And another person, Tommy Joe, who serves with Epic as well too.

Jamie and Tommy were the first people to help me realize that God has given me a story, that God has created adoption to be redeemed, even though it could be so messy and challenging. And I think once they really use those words, and they specifically, both of them said something to me, they said, hey, you know you’re Asian American, right? That was the first time someone affirmed me in that. And I think that really propelled me and set me off in this trajectory of being confident with who God’s made me and the story that he’s given me.

Wilson Wang

Can you lay out some of that roadmap maybe for someone else who’s doing their own journey? Like you were asked a question, had an amazing sister like Jamie help you think about that or even own the identity. If you were to lay out that road, what would it look like in your journey?

JJ Raymond 

Yeah, I think it first starts with having relationships with people to affirm who you are and to even just like sit with you in that. And Jamie taught me to have served that really well. And you did too, by asking me that question at that Mentor retreat. And I think even pointing our stories back to God is what really helped me. For the image of God, of like when God created man and woman and then looking at Psalm 139 and really seeing that God has created our stories, he’s woven that into us, that really helped me. And so I think the encouragement would be of like,

Realizing that when we’re creating God’s image is just not a physical thing. It’s also like a story thing as well, too It’s much more than what we physically look like, but what is God given to us through story to steward?

Wilson Wang 

I love that. Maybe one more question before we go to Jamie. I think about, we’re in the same small group now. I begged you to come, I begged both of you to come to me since I started and finally got to answer my prayers. So in our small group, like you started making some Korean dishes. I started using some Korean words or just like those really practical stepping into, you know, you being Korean.

Can you, maybe can you just like hone in on one or two of those things that have been meaningful to you in your journey?

JJ Raymond

Yeah, I think what really propelled me to practically live out those things of like, whether it’s watching K-dramas or making Korean dishes or being more confident to try the language was actually a conversation with my mom and dad. And it happened a couple of years before you and I met Wilson and I really brought it to him the first time of I’m starting to feel the complexity of being a transracial adoptee. And I was really nervous to share that, but then like kind of releasing this pressure that I just assumed that was there of just like,

No, we want you to explore this and we know like we couldn’t raise you just like how Korean parents were, but you are Korean. So what does it mean to pursue that?

Kristen Whitmore

Were you worried about the like betrayal piece? the betrayal? Interesting.

JJ Raymond

Yeah, of just like showing like I was ungrateful or I wish for something different, but I think that conversation helped me realize, like I have the freedom to explore some of these things. And it’s actually stewarding what God has given me, which led to going down the deep end 50 K dramas I’ve watched since, you know, 2020 and then making creme dishes and trying to language.

Wilson Wang

Almost like a permission from your mom and dad to want that for you too. I have a really sweet memory of being at your vision dinner or at UCI where you did that prayer walk and then we’re hanging out with your family afterward. Your parents were there and your mom was like, what good Korean restaurants are there? And I was so like touched. Of course, like a mom wants that, you know? And she was like, tell me where we should go and what are some Korean restaurants in there? We ended up in Chick-fil-A.

Kristen Whitmore 

That’s great.

Wilson Wang

I just saw her heart, you know, it was really cool to get a sneak peek of her heart. Yeah.

Kristen Whitmore

That’s so sweet. And Jamie, actually adoption is a part of your story too, but that’s later in life for you. So we’ll get there. If you have a snapshot of your own ethnic identity as you were formed and understanding who you were, how did that start in your family or maybe how did it evolve or change as you grew up?

Jamie Lam

Yeah, thanks for sharing. think there’s so many, I’m processing a lot of what he said and how that applies to my story now, which I know we’ll get there. I think personally, I grew up in Diamond Bar, Southern California, which is predominantly very Asian American. My high school was, I think, 85, 90%. Asian American grew up in a very Chinese Baptist church. And so I think for me, it was just very different, I think, than probably a lot of Asian American stories where they felt minority.

I’ve never felt that really. It’s always been majority culture for me. so I think honestly, it’s something that I never really had to process or really have like this wrestle with that I think a lot of my friends have. I would say it wasn’t until I reached college where I think I was like, man, I’ve grown up in this majority culture of Asian Americans and I kind of want to experience something different. And so when I got to college and started pursuing college ministry and like getting a part of a group, I was like, I actually don’t want to go to an Asian American ministry. I kind of want to experience something different, which is how I landed in crew because it is not predominantly people of color. And so I think stepping into my first crew meeting was kind of the shock for me being like, ⁓ this is really different. And one of the first people that I met in that crew meeting was a woman by the name of Jen Burke, who’s Japanese American. And I think it was kind of this like awakening for me of how quickly I clung to her because there was familiarity. And that just started this trajectory of like, there’s some stuff to process there in terms of identity. I went on a summer mission with Epic and I think that was the first time I think I was really challenged to think about my faith and culture and mission like I shared earlier and how do those things intersect together and how has God created me as an Asian American woman to use that for the sake of furthering missions in a way that other people can’t. And so that’s kind of a little bit of, I think, the journey with culture.

Kristen Whitmore

So interesting that happened, you said that’s happening in college and you’re looking into this ministry that you’re a part of at the same time. So maybe it was on that summer mission, but how did you see your faith and your relationship with God influence your ethnic identity? Or maybe what was it like in your journey of your ethnic identity? How was that shaping and influencing your faith?

Jamie Lam 

Yeah, it was probably one of my first summer missions going overseas to East Asia. And I think when we were kind of going through the briefing where they kind of like train you of what you can do, there was this aha moment of like, man, I can step into this place and blend right in. And there’s a receiving that I think I have because I look like these people and can semi speak the language where I think other people can’t. And I think there was this like almost stewardship, I think that the Lord put on my heart of how can you be a proclamer of the gospel in a place where people might just naturally be able to sit and have conversation that other people won’t because there’s just that natural relationship. Just in the same way that there was something that drew me to Jen because of the cultural piece that when you go overseas that kind of does. And so I think for me that was kind of the spark of it of yeah, stewarding the cultural identity that the Lord has given me and I think recognizing that there are really good, healthy things, but there’s also a lot of hurt. And so how do you bridge those two things and process those two things? It’s not better and it’s not worse, but there’s goods and hard things on both ends.

Kristen Whitmore 

So I know you both have a lot of cross-cultural friendships. I feel like I’m evidence of that. And a current snapshot of each of your family, we hinted at this a little bit, is that you guys are both in multiracial, transracial through adoption families now. So can you give us, before we kind of transition conversation, I wanna know a little bit more about adoption, how it played into your story, but will you give us a snapshot of what your family looks like right now?

So maybe JJ, I’ll start with you. Give us a snapshot of your family today.

JJ Raymond 

Yeah, so like my media family, mom and dad, particularly my mom, she comes from a really rich Armenian family, culturally still really connected to it. Little context, my great grandma fled Armenia during the Armenian Genocide. really big part of our family story. And so she carries a lot of that culture still today. My mom does. My great grandma was the only one to make it out alive at the age of 13 out of Armenia. So my family, half Armenian.

And also then some German, some Irish that’s mixed into it. But that’s kind of also carried over into like my marriage with Carly and our three daughters. Carly comes from a strong Danish family. So our kids, Hapa, they are multi-ethnic, they’re mixed race and they’re half Korean and half Danish. And so even like outside of our friendships, our family itself is this like representation, which is beautiful, but challenging at the same time of like, man, they’re mixed race, they’re Hapa kids, which is so beautiful. But how do we navigate this also through the lens of adoption?

Kristen Whitmore 

Yes. Do you already hear your girls asking questions about that or how are you seeing them navigate their ethnic identity journey? They’re young. I know. Yeah.

JJ Raymond 

Yeah, very young. What I’m really thankful right now is that there’s a lot of pride and confidence right now already being communicated from our oldest Naomi. And I asked her questions out of my own insecurities of like, Hey, like, what do people think about your lunch today? Or like, what, what do you think about being creative and full on confidence? I’m not sure if it’s people pleasing, but she’s like, I love it. This is like the best thing ever. And I’m so happy.

And I know there’s probably a lot more there, but I wasn’t responding the same way at age nine. So there’s a lot of pride. There’s a lot of excitement. And I know there will be confusion later though. And I think they’re already navigating through that as well.

Kristen Whitmore 

That makes sense. Jamie, give us a quick snapshot of your family today.

Jamie Lam

And the family you’re growing. Yeah. So growing up, both my parents are Chinese American, came from Hong Kong when they were in college. So grew up very culturally Chinese. And now I’m a single adoptive foster mom. And so my three and a half year old son Ari is mixed race as well. So he’s part African American, part Russian. And then I have a foster little girl right now who is gonna be one on Monday. And she I just learned is her dad is, for the longest time I thought she was Russian. I don’t know if I told you this, but she’s not. Yeah, because that’s what I was told when she came into our family. But her dad is, what is he? He is not Russian. It’ll come back to me, but she’s also half. Her mom is Spanish. And so that’s kind of the makeup of our family right now.

Kristen Whitmore 

You told me. Yeah. Okay. So you were hinting at this, but would love, you know, growing up in adoptive family and now growing an adoptive family, especially multiracial families. So when that you’re coming from and that when you’re growing, what are some of the complexities of the families that you’re in right now? Being a part of a multiracial family through marriage, JJ, or even you can speak more to adoption and Jamie building a family through adoption and foster care. That is multiracial. What are some of the complexities you’re running into? Maybe Jamie, can kick us

Jamie Lam 

Yeah, I think about how we started this conversation and just kind of what you shared in your growing up experience and kind of how to navigate that and I think about my kids and I’m like, man, these are questions that they’re going to ask. And so I’m very grateful to have friends who have lived that journey, who can speak into some of these things as my kids grow up processing. My little one, her dad, is from Ukraine. They’re used Ukraine.

Kristen Whitmore 

It did come back.

Jamie Lam

Yeah, it did. And so even just this last week, I was meeting with a social worker and one of her questions as we potentially move towards adoption is how are you going to help her keep her culture alive, right? Which is a really valid question. And I think I was a little bit stumped by that of like, do I do that, especially when that’s not my background. So it’s easy to walk with somebody who comes from the same background of like, yeah, I can speak into that. I know nothing about.

Russian culture or Ukrainian culture. And so there is that complexity as they grow up of how do I help them keep these things alive? I think that’s that’s probably at the forefront. So as he was sharing, there was just this like piece of me that was like, these are the things that my children and potential children are going to wrestle in. And so how do I do that? I don’t know. I think the answer that I have right now is I walk closely with people who have been in that that journey and in that story that can help then process as they get older and start to ask these questions.

Kristen Whitmore

Yeah, I think about even though we’re not conspicuously a transracial family, our family also grew through adoption and I only have the layer of the adoption identity, but it’s not obviously affirmed by outsiders, right? Where JJU said that there was this sort of like embarrassment or like I’m obvious. Something’s obviously different when I’m interacting with people, but just knowing the questions that come up from a child that’s growing up in an adoptive family, know, the conversations around ethnic identity seem like an important one that help them just understand their place in this world and their place in the family, their place in the family of God, like how formative those conversations are. And I just think, man, even for me, it’s so great for me to be able to tell my son adult adoptees that I know that I know that my son looks up to or to have another mom that’s navigating similar territory. So it’s really sweet. Just kind of even picturing right here. I don’t know if this gets to happen a lot, you know, where we’re navigating some of the difficulties or harder conversations with growing adoptive families or especially when it’s a trans racial or multiracial family.

So yeah, JJ, you can speak more to your family of origin or even just what it’s like being a multiracial family now. What are some of the complexities that you feel like you’ve?

JJ Raymond 

Yeah, probably can’t more like on say growing a family in immediate family right now. I think the hard part is not placing my insecurities and my experiences on our kids. Of like, I wish this was different about my life or I wish my upbringing or my school with teachers I had was different for my kids. And so I could see already when I fall into unhealthy like cycle or start believing the lies, it’s how I parent, you know, like

For example, there’s this one teacher. We live in Eastside Costa Mesa and it’s predominantly white majority culture We’re one of the few Asian families in there, but at our school there is a Korean teacher I have no idea who she is I don’t know her story her upbringing or background but I placed this annoying pressure like on her kids of like what if you had her as a teacher because that’s what I desired and like maybe if I had her as a teacher when I was a kid like my identity would be different or more confident and so

I think it challenged me as a dad and as a parent, I have to ask myself, what am I doing that’s like trying to replace something and putting unwanted expectations on our kids right now? Because yeah, maybe a Korean teacher would change, but they also have this whole other side of their lives through Carly, you know, that’s not Korean. So I think it’s complexity of like, yeah, what am I doing to our children and the future generations as well too.

Kristen Whitmore

And every parent listens and it’s like, yes.

Jamie Lam 

I think to that, it’s also interesting how like our culture has just shifted, right? So I can distinctly remember, I mean, I grew up in San Diego, is where I was in San Diego was predominantly white until I moved out here. But I distinctly remember like the lunch thing, know, like trying to hide my lunch, eating by myself, friends being like, what is that? Like that looks disgusting, you know? But I think culture has changed now where some of that is more acceptable, right? Like now you have the white kids, if I can say, like come in being like, like I’ve had that. That’s so good. Give me some of that.

Kristen Whitmore 

My daughter trying to come to school with the like rice and chicken.

Jamie Lam

And so I think even that has changed where I think we have to kind of pull back and say times have changed, right? Like what was once odd or different is now kind of the cool thing. And so our kids are getting to live in that. Right, right, right.

Wilson Wang

Thank you, and Demon Slayers. JJ, you also talked about being an adoptee, wanting to kind of just say, I don’t know how you want to say it, but just say it’s kind of hard. It’s hard in its own way because when we had that conversation, you’re like, man, so many people, rightly so, have elevated people who adopt. But being someone who’s adopted, you’re kind positioned to just be grateful but then, I don’t know, did you want to comment on that?

JJ Raymond

Yeah. And I just want to say too, like I don’t speak for all adoptees too. It’s kind of more my lived experience. Like there’s amazing stories of adoption and there’s some really challenging and sad stories of adoption. And I think with my experience too, I’ve come to realization, like we even use the word like adopted in past tense or I’m adopted. It’s like, it’s an ongoing journey and process. so I think even as we look at how adoption has been kind of platform as like a need of like, wow, like look what you can do to really meet a need, which is really important, you know? But I think as parents, and again, there’s a whole complexity of why parents go through adoption and there’s a lot of reasons why that are definitely very valid, you know? And so, but I think when it’s going down towards unhealthy path, could be parents are the ones that are platformed and then adopt these as a project, if that makes sense.

Kristen Whitmore

It’s like the, like a bit of a savior mentality that you see. Yeah. Kind of playing.

JJ Raymond 

So yeah, it could be safer mentality just to be very direct and also we have to realize it’s like man like as we platform adoption It’s like are we actually taking the stories of adopting into consideration of like no, let’s not just stop adoption But like let’s actually cast a vision of like it is gonna be challenging It is gonna be hard and adoption doesn’t stop once legally birth rights are transferred over. Yeah. Yeah

Wilson Wang

Yeah, I would love to hear like, yeah, what what brought you both to adopt and how are you holding? Yeah, holding it. Yeah.

Jamie Lam

I mean, I think for me, I mean, there’s a whole story there. I think that can come with that. The long and short of it is I think longing to be a mom, know, trusting that the Lord was going to bring marriage and there’s this right order to things and that didn’t come to fruition for me, but also that that didn’t limit what the Lord could do in terms of being able to have children and love on kids. So for me, it started in the classroom when I was a teacher and just having foster kids in my class that really I felt like just looking for the love and you know just attention of I think we all have you know and so that’s kind of where it started led me to start fostering and then slowly you know just through God’s working has led to adoption I think what I hold in that is it’s kind of just really what you said it’s like story right? That it’s not just my story that I’m holding. I can speak for my story, but it’s also these kids’ stories, whether they are reunified or whether they stay with me long term. There’s like a dot, dot, dot. Like their stories are not fully written yet. And I think my job is not just to adopt in the chapters closed, but how do I help them understand and build their stories in connection to God’s bigger story for them?

And so I think it’s holding the tension of the both and, that it’s not just, yeah, I provided this really great safe place for them, but really, it’s part of their story that’s gonna go on for a lot longer than I can even foresee.

Wilson Wang

So insightful.

Kristen Whitmore 

Yeah, I think that it’s it felt like when we adopted Lincoln we’ve had him since birth, but It was such a big part of our story when they’re a baby and they’re not communicating a ton and our journey started You know as just sort of like it would be cool to it would be cool to adopt one day you know just kind of something that you maybe see people do and then we got to a point where

We were struggling to grow our family after having our first bio daughter, and it just sort of unlocked that conversation again. But I think along the way, just, it took us like five or six years because of a ton of closed doors. But I am grateful now because I think I encountered so many real hard stories along the way from adoptees, like grown adoptees or especially like we were looking into international adoption for a while and just some of the like really, really heartbreaking unethical practices that are there when it really is just like find a child for a family, you know, that it’s very family parent centered. So yeah, the older my son is getting, the more I’m realizing this has to be less driven by us sharing his story and more driven by how he wants to share his story. And so, you know, he’s at a new school and as I meet parents, it’s not something that I share. Like that is going to be something that, you know, my son chooses to share. That’s a part of his story. So, but it’s such a huge part of our story that it really is something to like, you know, steward, discern when and how to share. Yeah, that’s excellent.

Kristen Whitmore 

Well, okay, so this is a little bit of a different, we just share so many things in common with you guys. We’re a church family. We’ve done ministry together in cool contexts, discovering ethnic identity adoption, but something also interesting through all four of us is this heart to work with the next generation. And we’ve all spent a lot of our life professional ministry on college campuses. So I would just love to hear.

Like a quick snapshot of what you guys are noticing, whether it’s on college campuses or just with the next generation in general. Jamie, you hinted at this when you were even talking about it’s a new world out there. But what are you seeing in young adults these days and college students when they’re navigating conversations around their faith and their ethnic identity? Like what are you seeing happen? Maybe what’s exciting you or what are the new difficulties?

Jamie Lam

That’s a good question. It’s just a different generation. There’s good and there’s hard, right? Like in anything. I think for me, this idea of story has just been so like prevalent in my life and not just through my own story, but I think even my college students have, I think the same way that the people that have gone before me have really drawn story out of me. I think that’s what I hope to do for my students.

Again, I work with Epic and so in the Asian American context, I work at Cal Poly Pomona. So again, we’re in the heart of predominantly Asian American. So again, I don’t think my students necessarily think about this idea of faith culture mission really, right? Like they think faith and they think mission, but because it’s so normalized where we are, I mean, the McDonald’s down the street for me, their sign is the and then on one side it’s written in Chinese and the other side it’s written in Korean. Like that’s where I live and so that’s where my students are mostly coming from and so I think it’s helping them understand what somebody did for me is bringing out this idea that God has created you with intention in your story and how he’s made you to be Asian-American and you know over last five years we’ve gone through ups and downs with just anti-Asian-American hate, like all that kind of stuff. And I don’t know that they’ve internalized it really. I think it’s just kind of this thing that’s happened on the outside, right? But I also think that they’re so numb to all that’s been going on in our country over the last five years that they just don’t even know what to do with it. And so we’re having to, the conversations look different, at least for us, where it’s like, the Lord cares about these things. Like these are people’s stories.

And as a family, we have responsibility to hold, which is what I love about our church and what we’re doing here is like we, I don’t feel like I do this alone. I feel like you guys have come alongside to hold my story and my kids’ stories. And so I think it’s that, know, Wilson and I were just talking earlier too. I think we’re coming out of that COVID generation too. And how has COVID affected our students now and how do they respond to things or what do they need? I was just, I saw a friend just post at a fall retreat. There’s a game that said pandemic and she was like, this is too soon. Like, how do you stay alive in pandemic? She’s like, this is too soon to be playing a game like this. But I think I’m feeling at least the repercussions of the COVID generation and how do we really pay attention to what they need in all of these areas and how do we hold their hands really in helping them shape and form to who God’s called them to be.

Wilson Wang 

Yeah, how would you name like some of the differences between college students who have gone through COVID in a younger age and the college students you had before we had the pandemic and maybe even more broadly like how would you say some of those shifts have happened from when you started ministry till now, you know, that gap of maybe 10 years.

Jamie Lam

Yeah, it’s so funny. That just makes me feel old. Like COVID, can remember like I was, know, but I think, I think it’s funny now, like my seniors who I think were probably in like high school during COVID are now looking at our freshmen being like, man, that was the COVID generation. Like they don’t know what they miss. And I’m like, you weren’t that far ahead of them, you know? But I think in their minds, they’re thinking like, they were in that fifth grade to sixth grade transition, which is such formative years of social skills and things like that.

I’m not saying if you’re watching and you’re my student that you don’t have social skills, but I think there’s this difference of like, how do we have conversations? And it’s not only COVID, I think it’s the generation of gaming and online stuff and there’s- Talking to AI bots. Yeah, like limiting the conversations that you have to have like this. Like how do we help reshape some of those things? And so I think it’s just helping them, you know, we do this even in evangelism training or discipleship is just how do you-

Listen, and how do you lean in to people’s stories? And how do you sit and just be attentive to what’s happening in front of you? Because we do this is where I fear for my children is like we do live in this generation of like chat GBT and just do this for me and you know the the access that we have to things and it I think it’s just yeah reshaping like human interaction. How do we just care for one another again in our stories and ask those questions because I think that’s what I’m realizing from my students is their their desire depth and their desire intimacy I think they just don’t know how to do it.

Wilson Wang

Yeah, how about for you, JJ?

JJ Raymond 

Yeah, I kind of go off of that too. And granted, I also work in a subculture sport as well too. But I think in general, let’s say young adults and college students right now. Yeah, it’s funny. As we talk about generational stuff, I feel like the previous generation will always say, this generation is looking for truth, know, or something like that. And I think that’s very true. But I also think it’s what’s different. And what I’m noticing is the process to get the truth, if that makes sense. And I think that’s where story really comes into the picture.

Recently just had wonderful opportunity to speak at a fall retreat with crew and there’s actually a tool that Jamie shared with me That’s called the signs of identity night and it’s talking about your story What you identify with your upbringing and how that can really intersect with faith But also like how do you what do you view is true in the world? And I feel like creating avenues for that is are helping young adults figure out who am I in God’s big picture in his story as well, too

So it’s like, I don’t think this generation wants to be told this is what truth is, but how do I get to experience truth as well? And I really see that with our student athletes as well. And looking through the Asian and Asian American context, it’s a very small population. Like let’s just be real, but it’s also one of the fastest growing populations right now. And so, what I really see in sport is actually we’re trying to help our student athletes who are Asian American, just a first like, acknowledge like, I’m Asian American and that’s different because they are experiencing those microaggressions in professional athletics and also the collegiate area as well too. So we’re really just trying to help our athletes understand that. Yeah, no, you being Asian and being an athlete, there are a lot of similarities, like the culture of high performance and knowing that you represent a team, you represent a family. How do others view you? Do you bring shame to your team? You bring dishonor. So.

There’s a lot of connectedness we’re trying to help our Asian American student athletes realize of like, no, you being Asian and what God’s given you is something that’s really cool through the subculture of sport. So it’s something I’m really excited to trust God with right now.

Kristen Whitmore

It makes me think about you getting permission to lean into your own ethnic identity and that maybe a lot of people getting into the access of sport at a collegiate level had to tuck ethnicity in their back pocket a little bit and to have spaces where they can really bring that out.

JJ Raymond

Yeah, kind of going off of that too, little bit like when we think about, say, through our Asian American athletes who did grow up with faith background, but to get to division one athletes, or even now division two, three, they had to sacrifice something. So one of the first things I get sacrificed is probably the church community, because every weekend they’re going. So they do have some separation of even the Asian American church experience as well too. when you ask them that, what’s like growing up Asian American church? like, well.

It was something five years old and after that it was nothing else. So even reforming that identity has been very eye opening too.

Kristen Whitmore 

Thanks so much for doing what you do. When I think about sending my daughter to college in the next couple of years, I want them running into JJs and Jamie’s and people that you are helping form so they can see how beautiful it is to follow Jesus in really cool, rich, multi-ethnic communities. Renewal is one of the places that I love experiencing that too, but I feel like we could probably continue to hang out for hours.

We get to, but we’ll wrap up for the sake of time for this podcast. But thank you for joining us and thank you for joining us for this week’s episode of the Solanetwork Leaders podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to our YouTube channel and give us a follow on Facebook, Instagram, or the Sola Network. Visit us at our website, www.sola.network. Thanks you guys.