SLP EP 11: From Scarcity to Generosity: Redeeming Our Money Stories

Sola Network

Welcome to the Sola Network Leaders Podcast, where we amplify the voices of pastors and ministry leaders shaping a gospel future for the emerging generation of Asian Americans and beyond. We hope you enjoy hearing different perspectives from various ministry leaders throughout the U.S.

Aaron Chung

My name is Aaron. one of the pastors at Exilic and I’m joined by my two friends who live in or near the financial capital of the world, New York City.

In Matthew 6, 24, Jesus says that no one can serve two masters, either he will hate the one and love the other. cannot serve both God and money. In and of itself, is a good thing, but the love of money is a bad thing. This is where we run into problems. Today, I wanted us to have a conversation about the topic of money. I thought we could open up

by talking about our own history with money and our relationship with money. What was your understanding of money with your family of origin? What was your relationship with money like in the church? Mine is really simple. We had no money. That was our relationship. How about you guys? What was your relationship with money like growing up in your family of origin and in your spiritual family?

Drew Hyun

Thank you.

Dave Park

Yeah, I mean, we didn’t have money either, but I didn’t know we didn’t have money for a long time. You when you’re young, you don’t really think about it. And so I didn’t really know. And then later on, when I was a teenager, my family went through bankruptcy, like a really severe.

And that really woke me up to, wow, this is, first of all, money matters because it’s all of a sudden changing everything about our family’s life. And I have to learn about money, but also, yeah, we really don’t have money. That was actually, that was pretty critical, I think, in just starting my, my thought process with money growing up, because we didn’t talk about it. was super taboo. ⁓ and then all of a sudden there was this big thing that blew up. And so that was like, yeah, really critical in my kind of development.

Drew Hyun

Yeah, for me, we, you know what’s funny is I, in my family of origin, I thought we didn’t have money. Turns out my dad was a very shrewd businessman and he was actually quite good with money. And so, but we grew up with the mentality that we were poor. So, and a lot of that was my father who was drilling into us about the importance of money, saving money, not having enough money, not spending things.

And my dad was a very simple man. you know, like my personal relationship with my dad, I’ve talked in other settings about some of the pain that I’ve had from him. But one of the things that I think he really demonstrated well to us, to the four of us boys was ⁓ just shrewdness with money. He was, I remember actually very early on, again, we had a very harsh relationship with him, but I remember he would actually, I remember he showed us a check on a Sunday morning, he showed us a check and he said, this check is the first thing you do with any money you get is you give it to God. So he actually modeled for us generosity first and that memory has just seared into my brain about like, hey, this is what we do with money. We give first and everything to God. To get to my brain, right? This is what we do with the life we give first and everything to God.

And then like I mentioned, I think later on in life, when I would learn more about my dad’s story, I learned just that we did have a lot of money. He actually ended up moving from, he was a business person first, and then he went into ministry later on. And it was actually those early years of being a business person that actually helped fund him going to seminary and all that stuff. And then my mom became the primary breadwinner. She worked tirelessly and that sort of thing. So there was this scarcity mentality that in some ways wasn’t real but and a generous spirit, which honestly to this day I’m very, grateful for. Yeah.

Aaron Chung 

Yeah, and just to piggyback off of that, with the church, on the one hand, you have obviously scandals and people taking money. On the other hand, I’ve also seen expressions of incredible generosity with the Korean American church in particular, with how generous they are giving money away to people going to ministry missions, people that are in need of mercy. So I’ve also seen that expression as well.

Maybe can follow up by asking, money is obviously really important, why don’t we talk about it enough then in healthy ways, why is it so taboo, is it such a sensitive topic.

Drew Hyun 

Well, I would honestly say related to kind of just that follow-up that you made about church and stuff, it’s interesting because so in the church, my dad demonstrated generosity and then the church that I was part of, it was a generous church. mean, the way that it grew and purchased property in Koreatown in Los Angeles and like, but it’s interesting because that generosity

And it was so kind of generous towards missions and overseas missions and that sort of thing. But then ultimately the money is actually what led to the church splitting. And it was because there were different factions on where and how the money should be spent. I remember very clearly like there was a different faction that wanted money to be spent on new land and going to a new area and the other faction that said, no, no, we’re supposed to buy this building.

Again, my middle school, elementary school brain wasn’t kind of formed enough to know exactly what was going on. It was only after learning these things. But then it just became clear that, gosh, money could be used as this incredible tool for good, but it could also be the source of so much incredible tension and pain and conflict, unless, kind of like what you’re saying, there’s an underlying kind of discipleship that happens where people are able to approach and talk about money.

I won’t even say talk about money. I honestly think it’s a discipleship issue that goes beyond money. It really is. The capacity to have healthy relationships and conversations about expectations. So that was my experience growing up in the church and how church was like both this beautiful sign of incredible generosity and at the same time the source of like awful, awful conflict.

Aaron Chung

Yeah, so let’s talk about that. So it is a discipleship issue, how we communicate to one another, how we miscommunicate. There is a lack of a theology of stewardship as well and how we ought to use money. So how do we then become better disciples in our communication, our relationship with money, stewardship? How do we discern the difference between pursuing financial excellence or slipping into idolatry or obsession with money? How do we discern when our pursuit of comfort crosses over to greed? How do we think about all those things?

Dave Park

Yeah, I mean, I think we have to first learn some biblical first principles about money first. And I mean, what’s difficult about the biblical principles is that it doesn’t speak in terms of amounts. And like when I get money questions, a lot of people are asking how much is too much or. But the wisdom that you get in scripture is really in terms of principles. And for me, when I look at the Bible, the first principles come from the Garden of Eden.

Right? As Adam and Eve are placed in the garden to work it and keep it. And I think for us, gardening is like a hobby, but in the ancient Near East, they would not have thought, this is a hobby, but these are assets. This is work. And it just shows that the resources that Adam and Eve were entrusted with, they were for the welfare or the wellbeing of God’s creation. Right? And they were called to multiply it, to steward it, and then to allocate it right, for the well-being of his people and creation. So money had a really clear purpose or resources had a really clear purpose and it was for well-being. I think we have to first understand those first principles of what money is for, like what’s it for, and then that kind of helps to make it clear that idolatry starts when wealth becomes the goal and not a means, when it becomes to tell us now it’s idolatry. And I think even the world, like even non-believers understand that hoarding and spending on self, they’re not good things, right? And even just wider economically, if the economy slows down when money is hoarded, right? And it’s not spent when it’s not distributed, addressing kind of wider needs, the economy slows down because you know, one family, you can only eat so much, you can only use so many services. So the economy slows down as well. So I think that there’s this idea that money is supposed to be moving, the money is supposed to be moving to create well being. And so something that is helpful that you know, I asked my family and it’s good for others to ask is, who’s experiencing well being due to your wealth, right? You should be included in that, but who else, right? Like who else is being benefited and being blessed by your wealth? I kind of think about wealth very similar to time, right? That’s another like resource. God isn’t opposed to us using our time for our own wellbeing, but if all your time is spent on yourself, you have to like really rethink your schedule, right?

It’s really similar, I think, with money because money is kind of like this potential for well-being and blessing, and it should move. It should be multiplied, stewarded, and allocated for the good of his creation. And so just kind of learning that as just first principles, I think, is a helpful first step.

Aaron Chung

Yeah, this goes back to Drew’s point where it’s a discipleship issue because the second greatest commandment is loving our neighbor. And one of the ways that we can do that is with a spirit of generosity. So yeah, that’s really great. So let me get really practical. So I can imagine someone listening to this pod on money and I just want to get really practical. Where is the line then between responsible saving like retirement? Kids college, emergency funds, a lot of ministry leaders are really bad with. So where’s the line between responsible saving and then hoarding that reveals a lack of trust in God? How do you differentiate between the two? Where’s the line?

Drew Hyun 

Wow. Yeah, I I, I mean, we teach a very kind of simple framework in terms of kind of, and it’s giving, saving, and spending. So what’s interesting is I think in the scriptures, there’s basically, you know, there are prescriptions around saving and the wisdom of it. The book of Proverbs is replete with teachings about saving. And so there’s a wisdom there. And yet at the same time,

There’s also teachings, Jesus in fact teaches a parable about someone who basically commands his soul and you know, eat and have plenty because you’ve stored up these things in your barns. And so in many ways, and honestly for me, most people actually would probably say, Drew is like, actually Tina has said, my wife, she said that I’m just not a very materialistic person. She said I’m one of the least materialistic people she knows.

I wear the same thing every day and people make fun of me all the time about that, you know? I often get mistaken for a food delivery driver, like just the way I dress around the city and stuff. like, but what people wouldn’t know about me is that I am… So people would think, Drew’s not driven by money or motivated by money, but it’s because I… But I am obsessed with money when it comes to saving. 

And like, because saving becomes such a, it honestly became like a God to me. Even as a church planter and a pastor, I mean, I’m kind of, I’m a little embarrassed to say this, but I would, in the early days of church planning, I would be, I’d look at this, our bank account every single day. And I’d get really worried. And some days it was the first thing I looked at when I woke up. Like how much money is in the bank? And you know what was crazy was like our church, it’s not like we were struggling or anything.

I mean there were seasons of struggle for sure, especially in the early days and seasons of worry, but it just revealed to me how big my like my idol of money was, even though again discernibly people would say, Drew doesn’t struggle with money and that sort of thing. And so, and that’s where I realized like, and again, I could, I could moralize it and basically say, see, look at how good of a saver I am, like honoring the book of Proverbs, but in reality, even saving was a God to me because of, you know, my whole immigration background, never believing we had enough, and it still kind of is. And what’s interesting then, for me then, like the only thing that could cut through that idol of saving for me is generosity. And so where that needs to come first. And so for my wife and I then, and you know, we’ve read, you know, various books on all sorts of things on financial management and trying to be as wise as stewards as possible. But we’re always like wrestling with God, what does generosity look like? Help that be first. And that’s what we want to model to our church. And the way of generosity is simply releasing things so that I’ve given up control and have basically said, you know, God, I want to trust you in this. And then so that’s where the, you know, that order of giving, saving and spending comes into play.

With that said, like I’ve honestly, this is maybe a personal issue, I don’t know if this gets into, like my wife and I, I’ve been so frugal that it damaged my marriage because, and part of it was I grew up with three brothers and my wife, you know, I’m like, what do you need to buy these things for? Like, you know, she’s like, these are feminine products Drew, like, but like it was just like,

But I was so frugal, I penny pinch and it really damaged my marriage in that I was so extreme. But this is where again, having the formation tools and principles to hopefully be loving people who can, I don’t know, have the ability and the capacity to speak the truth and love to one another, to constantly keep God and the focus of giving first, then saving with wisdom.

But also spending in a way that we can love others as we love ourself. I think there’s something, and honestly, the way that I loved myself or like the way that I would quote unquote spend on myself as a pastor or spend on our family, honestly, it did a lot of damage to my wife and to my kids and my family early on because I was just, I was so intense and principled that it was unreasonable in the way that I think about spending even. anyhow, sorry, that was a long kind of convoluted way of talking about these different issues, I really, you know, one of the things that I’m a big advocate for is for pastors, you know, oftentimes there’s such a significant sacrifice for pastors that pastors have made related to ministry, and it ends up taking a toll on families in ways that are you know, Pete and Jerry Scazzaro, often talk about like, there’s clean pain and then there’s dirty pain. You clean pain is the pain that, you know, it’s the pain of like life ministry. It’s going to happen like where life is hard and, know, Apostle Paul talks about you’re going to face persecution and difficulty and whatever else. But then there’s dirty pain, which we do to ourselves, which, you know, when I can like willfully withhold from my wife and my children and expect them to live a certain kind of way when I should really be trying to live so that we can live out of the fullness of generosity of spirit and sacrifice. But we do it out of a place of also loving ourselves and taking care of ourselves. I know that’s accented more towards pastors and leaders, but I think it applies in terms of, you know, as long as I’m hopefully Godward in my orientation and thinking through giving, saving, and spending, like all of those different buckets, I want to offer each one of those buckets to God.

Aaron Chung

Yeah, thanks for that, Drew. And just to affirm you, I mean, you are definitely one of the most generous people that I know with your time, talent and treasure. And so thank you for all that you do for friends, for the ecosystem of New York. I want to press a little bit on the giving portion, which is so important. It’s a way to sort of combat our unhealthy relationship with money. So I just preached on Mary of Bethany, washing Jesus’s feet.

She broke an alabaster jar. She didn’t spray Jesus with perfume. She broke an alabaster jar. The disciples were saying it was more than a year’s wages. So what I did, I looked up the most expensive perfume in the world today, which is the Shamuk Dubai for $1.3 million. And so you can imagine someone breaking $1.3 million at Jesus’ feet. And so I was saying that there was a healthy recklessness that Mary of Bethany had.

At the same time, when people are discussing this in their community groups, they were also thinking, well, does that mean that we just deplete our entire savings account and just be reckless with our giving to Jesus because he’s worthy of it all? so the question that I have is, especially as East Coasters who a lot of our people work in the finance industry, they’re very astute thinkers when it comes to money, what advice would you give around the topic of generosity? Is there such a thing as foolish generosity. And in contrast to foolish generosity, what does faithful risk taking actually look like would love your thoughts on that.

Dave Park 

Yeah, you know, that’s an interesting question because I don’t see that being like a real issue on the East Coast. Like people being way too generous, like bordering on foolishness ⁓ that I would actually be incredibly encouraged to see people like that. It’s very rare. But yeah, I guess in theory, there is the sense that, hey, you and your family are also included in the kingdom of God and his children. And so you shouldn’t neglect your own family and you know, we have passages that speak to that. I just took, make up an example. If somebody went into crazy debt to give to the church or missionaries, a debt that they couldn’t pay, I would say, okay, you’re probably foolish because you did not count the cost. they say, well, you know, Jesus did that, you know, Jesus paid this incredible debt, you know, for us, but Jesus could pay you know, he could pay the debt. you know, on one hand, you need to count the cost. But I think that I would still encourage people towards a more radical generosity because of our culture and this huge temptation in our hearts. I think that the line and when we talk about what is the line, the line is it’s hard because it’s actually in our hearts, right? It really comes down to your character.

I wouldn’t entrust my six year old with a hundred dollars because she doesn’t have the wisdom, character and godliness to handle a hundred dollars. But I do firmly believe that a 50 year old man or woman who is incredibly godly should be entrusted with the billions. Because if their character is there, it’s going to flow and it’s going to go to the places where it should go. It really does come down who to the heart, like I was having a discussion with some people who are kind of first generation wealthy families. And the big discussion is, you how much do we leave to our kids? And that’s not just a Christian discussion, but it’s a pretty big one that’s widespread because even non-believers know that too much money can ruin kids. And so the discussion was, I mean, we eventually landed on you have to know your kids.

Do they have the wisdom character and godliness to handle, let’s say, a million dollar inheritance? If not, that million dollars is going to be ruinous for them. But for a child who has that character, then you can be sure that it’s going to flow, that money is going to flow to the right places, and it’s going to end up creating well-being for not just them, but for other people. So I think it will come down to the character.

Aaron Chung

So good. So, I mean, that was part of the reason why I was preaching on Mary Bethany, because we’re probably not reckless enough when it comes to our money, our relationship with money. what are some practical ways where we can have a kingdom consciousness when it comes to money? What are some ways where we can seek first his kingdom? I think the greatest investment you can make in the world is in people and more than real estate or for a long case and storing our treasure also in heaven where moth and rust cannot destroy. as pastors, what are some practical ways where we can disciple and form our people to have a consciousness of eternity that shapes our daily financial decisions rather than just our own financial portfolios?

Dave Park

But before we get into the meat of that, if I could just say something about investing, because I realize that my people think about investing all the time. And I think that there is a place for faithful risk taking. And you know, all financial instruments have risk. But there is kind of, I think, a biblical way of thinking about it, even though the Bible doesn’t directly talk about risk. I think that

if you think about faith, right, there’s, it kind of lives at this intersection between hope and evidence. On one hand, Paul says that faith is the assurance of things hoped for, conviction of things unseen. On the other hand, he says, but if Christ is not raised from the dead, then our faith is in vain. So on one hand, there is this hope, but it’s this measured hope in evidence. Like there’s real evidence of what happened and if Christ wasn’t raised, we shouldn’t just hope for things unseen, right? So it’s not blind in that sense. There’s like a reason why we hope. And I would just advise for people who are thinking about investing a lot and thinking about how do I think about financial risk? I think that both those things have to be there. ⁓ So risk averse that you’ll never invest in anything. I think that’s kind of a problem. That’s like kind of a fake problem. On the other hand, you should have a reason for why you are investing in these things, right? You know, at CoreFunds, we talk about what’s the track record, what’s the historical return, what market conditions are there. And I know that most people probably would just use a financial advisor or just invest in the S &P 500. But I think we should ask like, do you at least know what the S &P 500 is? Just generally in theory, you know, what you’re in. So that you have a reason for the hope that you have, a reason for the investment that you’re making. And so I know that in the financial world, those are very basic principles, but I find that a lot of younger people that I’m talking to are falling into crazy investments or meme coin stuff. it’s just, I’m a little bit concerned that it’s being compartmentalized away from the wisdom of faith.

And they’re just jumping into it headlong. just, yeah, just be careful and think with faith and with, you know, wisdom. You know, there should be evidence.

Aaron Chung 

Yeah, I don’t know if you guys have seen this but Tim Keller actually has a a talk for his faith and work Group called a theology of risk that’s floating around YouTube somewhere. I don’t think that gets enough traction It’s it’s a great talk. It’s called a theology of risk. You can look it up on YouTube Super super helpful when it comes to understanding faith and and risk

Drew, any last thoughts on how money can be a tool for advancing God’s kingdom? Every institution needs money, whether you like it or not. Money is a part of sustainability and ministry too. Any last thoughts on that?

Drew Hyun 

I don’t have any last thoughts, but I did. I don’t know if the listeners on the podcast are aware Dave of your background that you are a lead pastor of this thriving church in this area in New York City and New Jersey, but you also are an investor and have worked in real estate development and all sorts of things. So you have such a unique vantage point.

And so when you talk about investing and about generosity, mean, as you have been living in both of these worlds, because you’re concurrently doing this, I mean, it just gives another vantage point. And you do both of those things very well, at least in my estimation. So I don’t know, Dave, just, like, most people may not know that about you, but you’re like someone that is leading the way and kind of galvanizing folks around generosity who are in the investment business world here in the city, but also you’re also a local church pastor. How do you, I’d be curious to hear just a little bit more of maybe how you see the intersection of that. What are some of the tensions that you find and what are some of the opportunities that you see? Yeah.

Dave Park

It was a huge tension when my theology of money and resources was really weak because we all come from a secular sacred divide. But I think once I realized, number one, this money is not mine, just like the people of God are not mine in the church, and we are just hoarding people, time, resources, leveraging them for maximum impact and blessing for the kingdom really made sense, I can have a hand in this, especially because the purpose of Quora funds is to support ministries. But you know, there is tension because when you’re dealing with substantial sums, there’s temptation, right? And when you’re dealing with risk, there’s you know, it’s messy because not all investments are going to make a return, right? And so are you going to be responsible in the way that you approach this? Are you going to be wise in how you set up the fund? And so I think, you know, like I’ve started a counseling network before I’ve done mercy ministry, like set up institutions for that before. This has been the hardest one because I think there’s such taboo around money that let’s say when a pastor gets involved in financial instruments.

You know, there’s such a distaste around that that even I had to like very much personally struggle with that. But I think the scriptures helped me a lot. You know, I think about the character of Joseph. Essentially, he was given a charge over Potiphar’s assets, not his own. He’s not managing his own money. He’s managing Potiphar’s assets. And when this opportunity came where Potiphar’s wife asked if he would take advantage of her essentially and violate her. And she even said, I’m into it. Like maybe in our legal terms, she might say, I’ll sign a release. You I want this. And there are times when investors, you know, they’ll want to leverage to the Hilt or this, they’ll say screw risk parameters and things like that. But I think that we who are involved in this world, we have to remember Joseph who said, look, you might want this.

I might want this, but there’s still God. And we have to keep the stewardship mentality in mind and on one hand not be paralyzed by fear, but on the other hand, you know, have strong stewardship and obedience to Him. Once those things kind of seeped in, I realized, okay, this is not something that’s off limits for me, but I have to do it with a heightened sense of care, stewardship, obedience, and know, faithfulness all the way through. Yeah.

Aaron Chung

That’s great Dave, can you actually give us a 30 second plug of what Cora is and there’s two cores. There’s one spell K H O R A, which is also serving the Asian American community. Is your C O R A? that how you spell

Dave Park 

Mine’s K-O-R-A-H.

Aaron Chung 

Okay, can you just give us a 30 second plug for what that is?

Dave Park 

Yeah, so CoreFunds, our mission is to essentially create kind of an endowment long term. I kind of see a problem, which is that our current approaches to funding ministries, I don’t know if it’s sustainable to continue to use the same model. I think we need a couple of institutions or structures alongside of that model to make it more sustainable long term.

Like if you think about the rising cost of college, one of the big reasons why kids can keep going to college is because there are these endowments that come alongside and support ⁓ or else lots of people, like they would never be able to pay for college. There’s also, you know, government debt, which is not great, but that’s also something that comes alongside. I don’t know if in ministry in the most expensive places like New York City, Seattle, Los Angeles, if we have institutions that are focused in on just recognizing how expensive it is to be a pastor campus missionary there. And so we want to build up an endowment that is next to those people who are, you know, my partner, he has done Young Life for over 25 years and he focused in on New York City and Connecticut. And he said, every four years, these guys leave right before they’re about to get effective.

It’s not sustainable. And he always says, imagine if Tim Keller had to leave after four years because he ran out of money, right? We have to do something, but it’s not going to be fast. We have to build up fairly serious money to come alongside places like New York City to be a supporting structure, you know, long term for guys who like give up everything and move from Illinois and Memphis and come to minister in New York, which is a beautiful thing, but, and I’m so glad that we have EHS, like Rooted Pastors. There’s so many things that help us emotionally, psychologically, spiritually, but we do need some people working on the money thing too, because that does weigh on pastors and missionaries.

Aaron Chung 

That’s great, All right, so I’m gonna land the plane. Just wanted to give you guys maybe 30 seconds. Any final thoughts when it comes to the topic of money before we wrap up?

Dave Park 

Drew, you go, I’ve been talking a lot. 

Drew Hyun

No, I love, man, I love just the idea of stewardship. We’re stewarding what God has given to us and to think creatively about how to give, save, spend related to that. You know, and obviously if we threw invest in there, that’s another way of, I think, thinking through, because even you, David, you’re thinking about investment as another tool of giving, which is amazing.

I mean to see how that you’re leveraging wealth as much as possible for a kingdom need. Man, I just I applaud that and bless that. And I hope more folks that have the grace on them to think about how they’re generating wealth in the economy, how they can leverage that wealth in such extraordinary kingdom ways, especially in a city like this, which is so obsessed with money. Man, I just.

I get so pumped up about it because I see how much money can have a tangible difference when it’s used in a kingdom-centered, generous, generative way.

Aaron Chung 

Yeah, I think Tim Keller was the greatest preacher of our generation, but he may have even been a better fundraiser investor and leading in stewardship when it comes to money and his generosity. And so this is why a lot of the things that we have today are are still here because of his his stewardship with money. So he was a great preacher, but he may have been better when it came to money, actually.

So Dave, any last thoughts?

Dave Park 

There’s so many, but if I could snap my fingers and download something into everybody’s hearts, it’s really just the truth that money will not satisfy. Like Ecclesiastes 5.10, he says, whoever loves money will not be satisfied with money. And to me, like that’s a really sad romance because this guy is a up with money and then money will not love him back. you know, there’s so many, you know, scientists, Christian scientists who are showing us like there is a severe diminishing return to having money, right? And we just don’t believe that like we really don’t believe that we do believe that more will make us happier. it just sidetracks us from what actually makes us happy in regards to money, which is seeing well being flourishing amazing things happen through our money. If I could in some magic way download that truth to everybody, I think that that would be, it would go such a long way, right? Just know that this is going to diminish in your happiness. This is not going to return. You know, you’re going to need, if you get $5,000 in a check, and they’ve studied this, the amount of dopamine that it gives you,

In order to have that same amount of dopamine the second time around, Christian Smith in his book, Paradox of Generosity, writes this, in order for you to have that same amount of dopamine, you got to have $10,000 to just get the same amount of dopamine from the five. And so it is like a substance, like you can pursue it, but it’s so difficult. But he says, instead, if you give away $2,000 or a lesser amount, you can experience the joy of getting that first five. And I just don’t know if we believe that, but it’s already in the scriptures, like all over the place. And so I think if a place like New York City can reorient the way that we think about money, it could be really powerful, you know, lots of other people.

Aaron Chung

I think a wise person once said it is better to give than to receive. And so maybe we can land the plane with that. I don’t know if you guys collect offering with like baskets on Sunday services. Everything for us is digital. So we don’t really collect cash, but there was one Sunday some years ago, a college student came forward to me, didn’t say a word, but she handed me a dollar bill looked at me and then walked away and I was like what am I supposed to do with this stuff? But for her it was two copper coins and for her it was probably a sacrifice and I’ll never forget that moment because for her it was, if she didn’t say a word, but she gave it to me with such humility and it left an imprint on my heart and so it is much better to give than to receive. Alright, thank you for joining us for this week’s episode of the Solar Network Leaders Podcast.

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