SLP EP7: Enoch Liao and the Chinese Heritage Church

SOLA Network

Welcome to the SOLA Network Leader’s Podcast, where we amplify the voices of pastors and ministry leaders shaping a gospel future for the emerging generation of Asian Americans and beyond. We hope you enjoy hearing different perspectives from various ministry leaders throughout the U.S.

Steve Chang

Hi, I’m Steve Chang and I’m with Enoch Liao, my friend who is the English congregation pastor of Boston Chinese Evangelical Church as well as the cofounder of a group called the Chinese Heritage Church Collaborative. He’s also on the SOLA Council and a person that many around us believe is the voice of the Chinese Heritage Church, especially among the ABCs. So, I’m so grateful to have him here. I hope you’re doing alright, Enoch.

Can you give us a brief background of who you are? I know many know who you are already, but there are many who may not know to the extent of your upbringing, your background, your church background.

Enoch Liao

Yeah, sure. I was actually born in Michigan in the Midwest, but grew up pretty much in LA, Southern California. Went to school there, went to college there, UCLA, and then seminary at Talbot School of Theology at Biola, which I know you know. And did ministry there up at kind of around college, formative years, ministering at Bread of Life Church in Torrance, California, a Chinese Heritage Church in the South Bay there. And then after seminary, did a pastoral residency for one year at Bread of Life Church in Torrance. With that position, that residency really is a launching position. So you’re working full time learning under Pastor Dan Low, who’s still there to this day, a good friend, but also having the freedom to visit and try and apply to different places.

And long story short, the Lord called me and my wife to move out to Boston. We moved out in 2001. I was hired as the youth director. And since then, had the privilege to do college ministry, adults, young adults and senior adults ministries, married families, a bit of counseling, overlapped with the children a little bit here and there, operations. Currently, I’m the lead English pastor for our English speaking ministries at our both campuses at BCC. And they haven’t fired me yet. So that’s where we’re at. They’re still here.

All our boys at this point, since―actually this is new since July―all our boys have now gone off to college or beyond. And so our youngest son, we just moved him to college from Pittsburgh last month. So we are officially, whatever you call that, some version of empty nesting in some sense. And we’re grateful for what the Lord is doing. Yeah, so that’s us in a nutshell.

Steve Chang

And a couple of―a few years ago, you started the Chinese Heritage Church Collaborative. Tell us what that is.

Enoch Liao

Yeah, so, my church is currently in Boston. So a lot of people, for a lot of reasons, for work, job, life, ministry, go through the city in that region, as I’m sure they will go in other places. But Boston’s a little unique in that it’s prominent, but pretty small. So people can go through LA, but you’ll never have met them. They were there 10 years, you were there, but you never overlap. But Boston, there’s a lot of overlap. Between that and the opportunity to get to speak in churches, visit churches, and some of the both East Coast and West Coast connections, as I got to speak at different churches and different pastors, it would look like this. I’d get invited to speak at a conference for a church on-site or at a retreat center. And I’d live with the pastor and maybe his spouse like the night before, stay over, bond with them, drive up, do a weekend of maybe preaching, but also just enjoying talking to the leaders, the people there, or maybe preaching in their pulpit on that Sunday. And then really getting a good feel for the church and the ministry and all their lay leaders. Just a flavor, you know, what you can get in a weekend snapshot. But I really enjoyed, I really enjoyed, Steve, the fellowship with the pastors, the almost instant affinity, especially once you get into the immigrant, the Chinese, Asian sort of that whole dynamic within churches, similar to Korean heritage churches or, you know, Russian heritage churches. There’s a lot of commonality even in just immigrant churches. And so I really enjoy talking to different pastors and learning. I basically would leave every retreat I got to speak at, or if someone came to speak for me, feeling like I gained a great friend in ministry that we could text and talk. And over time, I realized that as I was doing this, especially if I was given the chance to travel just maybe once or twice a year―but you do that for 10, 15 years, you get to get a little bit around―I felt like other people may not have had that joy and the opportunity.

And so around 2013, I started specifically asking this question prompted by, actually, Pastor John Tung in Maryland. It kind of was a really formative conversation for me. What would it be like if English speaking pastors of Chinese heritage churches could kind of connect? There were a couple other vehicles. We’ll do that in another podcast maybe. But basically when I went to speak at places around 2013, explicitly asking people, So, hey, I’ve really enjoyed getting to know you and learning a lot from each other. Is this something you would be interested in? Consistently the pastors would say, That’s, yeah, we’d love that. And every year I thought, okay, maybe we’ll pull something together. But just the way the Lord worked it out, wasn’t until 2019 that I felt, okay, I just, you know, got to start this that the Lord wants it.

So emailed a bunch of people, probably about a couple dozen pastors. And without any reputation, any big name speakers, about 27 pastors flew, well, not all flew, some drove, but basically came to Boston in the 2019 of May to have what we would call a pastor’s colloquium. And they were almost all friends, like probably 80 percent of them, I had the privilege of being in their churches or pulpits. And we had one question, Is there value for us to get together? Do you find it? So we spent 60 percent of that time just sharing our stories and ministries. And I was dumbfounded by the fact that you two are both super outgoing pastors. You live in neighboring states, but you’ve never met each other. That makes me like so sad for you. I enjoy so much your friendship. It’s so delightful to see them make connections. And so 2019, we ended that colloquium just saying, Do we want to do this again? And the response was overwhelmingly yes. Of course then 2020 May, we had to move our colloquium online. A couple of years we did that online. Everyone’s going through the pandemic.

And then 2023, we decided to have our first open public national gathering. We call it the Ministers Collective. So the Ministers Collective, about a hundred, I don’t know, 107 or 112 people came to Houston, no advertising except the website just to register people. And by God’s grace, it’s really his timing because I think there’s a need for connection. 2024, we did some regional gatherings to see if they’re still staying. In 2025, we had it recently in Dallas. Again, I have no idea if anyone’s gonna go to these things, but hopefully I’m gonna have a good time. And the Lord brought more folks again. And now it really does seem that there’s this national conversation, or more like a national set of emerging and growing relationships to encourage and challenge and to support among the English speaking ministries of Chinese Heritage churches, particularly in the U.S. There’s some other stuff happening in Europe and a little bit in Canada, but that’s what the Chinese Heritage Church Collaborative is.

Yeah, we’re praying about what it might mean for the future because it’s all volunteer-run right now, a couple of pastors and I, but we’ve been really blessed and grateful and open to the Lord. So that’s the Chinese Heritage Church Collaborative. That’s where we’re at this point. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I guess that’s true.

Steve Chang

Yeah, mean, I mean, without all the marketing and you know, whatever. There’s a hunger, a growing need. And so your primary vision or goal, and you painted a picture of two brothers who are outgoing, serve in the same city, but they haven’t met.

Enoch Liao

Serve in adjoining states. In the East Coast, it’s not like California, keep going up the coast to the Bay Area. Like here, it’s like we go to Jersey, then down to like Philly, then, yeah. So, which is still within the―it’s like faster to drive to Philly than it is to drive to like San Diego.

Steve Chang

So, they’re within driving distance of each other.

Enoch Liao

Totally, totally. Yeah.

Steve Chang

And it saddens you because they need encouragement. They are isolated, but they have someone nearby but why, you know, that they just haven’t made the connection and, or made the effort.

Enoch Liao

Yeah, like there’s a lot of resources. And again, the SOLA audience probably gets when I say this. There’s a lot of PWI, predominantly white institutions, that are definitely trying to fill that space. And, you know, we go to those seminaries and read a lot of their books, but I don’t think people sometimes especially in the eastern United States, where the number of Chinese and the density of their populations is much more spread out. It’s not like LA. Like in LA can drive for a couple of miles and hit a bunch of Chinese heritage churches in the same area. But sometimes that’s the one church or two churches in that fairly sizable city proper, like in Philadelphia or in even in like, yeah, other places like that or Atlanta. And so they’re few and far between.

There’s the standard things you would expect. I didn’t know other people go through this. I didn’t know other people had the same struggles. I didn’t know there are other people that could understand what I’m going through. And just the knowledge of that doesn’t solve any problems yet, although it might, is just very affirming. But I think it can be super important for that network and that encouragement.

And Chinese heritage churches, you know, the Chinese culture is about keep your head down and just do your thing. Like it’s not about self-promotion or even networking. And so it’s not natural or even necessarily rewarded or supported. What I mean by that is most Chinese heritage churches do not have a budget so their pastor can just go talk to other pastors in other states. Like maybe there’s a conference budget, maybe, but the value of that relationship to really strengthen and give them resilience for the long haul―it’s just not something we’ve had to deal with part of that. So that’s really the vision. One of the other ways to paint the vision was, imagine in 30 years or so, someone growing up in a Chinese heritage church says like, It’s like all our pastors are friends from somewhere back in the 2020s. Something happened in Texas and if nothing else happens, that the collaborative decides, okay, that’s the Lord, there’s nothing else we’re called to do or it’ll take it other forms. But if only these two minister collectives in 2023 and 2025, that’s all that we ended up doing, I would be grateful to think that significant friendships were formed and began that could hopefully sustain someone in a lifetime of ministry. So that’d be my hope.

Steve Chang

Right. No, I think that’s beautiful. Whether it’s in Boston or in California, and you’re right, and that there’s a greater concentration of Chinese heritage churches in Southern California, but it doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re more connected. They drive past each other’s church. And I was talking to a Chinese ABC pastor a few weeks ago. And he said that the Chinese pastors in SoCal, they don’t connect even though they’re close. They don’t network, they don’t collaborate on ministries. But I think what we find out, whether it be Chinese or Korean, in a majority culture space as minorities, there’s a certain hunger and need to belong somewhere, a tribe, people who understand us. But for whatever reason, yeah, maybe it’s just our culture. We put our heads down, we don’t express our needs, we don’t show our vulnerability and so we don’t make the effort to make those connections, but we so need it.

Enoch Liao

Yeah, well, I got another bit there. I think that’s totally correct. But something that is also perhaps a factor is especially for Korean and Chinese, there are other Asians and obviously Asian American Christianity is really big and worthy of disaggregation to talk about. Within the larger ones, which probably numerically would be Chinese heritage churches and Korean heritage church leaders, they’re pretty good at being quite adjacent and able to fairly say than other minority groups, you know, not as threatening to majority culture as other racial groups. There’s a lot of similar values of education and kind of, you know, not making a big deal about stuff. So they can do very well going to good, helpful majority culture events and gatherings, which is one of the reasons why they don’t hang out with each other, because a lot of the Chinese who are serving in Southern Baptist churches, they do see each other. A lot of Chinese that are serving in Alliance churches, they might see each other, but that’s not necessarily―that’s convened by those denominational affiliations. And those are very worthwhile ones.

But when you really get to the fact that like, wow, even though I’m Alliance, you’re Presbyterian or you’re Southern Baptist or you’re Pentecostal, the fact that we’re in this case, Chinese immigrants, there’s a lot in common right there that spans those denominational and theological tribal differences, as valid as they may be. So I think that’s why a lot of people don’t think to do this because there’s already a network or, just have KALI, have this Korean American leadership initiative within something like the PCA and you can have people in your tribe there. And there’s valid points to that too. But to be something that is authentically driven by and started with these Asians or Chinese, in this case, Chinese heritage churches in mind, that doesn’t seem to be happening as often. Nothing wrong with being associated to a larger thing that’s predominantly majority culture, but that affinity is so powerful, and I think that is why people are surprised. Like, I’m pretty acculturated, but when I go to this place, wow, I feel it all. Take off my shoes or whatever it is. They slide into this thing. Almost, they slide into a level of affinity and connection that they didn’t realize they were missing.

Steve Chang

Right, right. And I’ve spoken with pastors who serve at large majority culture churches. And I remember, I was talking to one and had a great time getting to know each other over Zoom for about an hour. And he texted me afterwards and he said his assistant outside the door hadn’t heard him speak and laugh so loudly in a long time. And when we were talking, I guess we just felt more free to be ourselves per se. That’s so great. You used the term Chinese heritage church. And I remember you using that about 10 years ago when I started to get to know you. And I encouraged you to put that in writing and coin it per se. Can you describe what a Chinese heritage church is and why the term was helpful for you?

Enoch Liao

Yeah, well, the academic part of me does want to be clear, not for tooting my own horn, but I did coin it to my knowledge, both the English and the, well, we got help with the Chinese phrasing. But the stories I usually tell is that, there’s two stories I often say. One, there was a Korean woman that was in our college ministry, wanted to get baptized and asked me if I could get baptized. I said, that’s great. Yeah, sure. Why not? Well, she said, well, I’m not Chinese, is that still okay? I’m like, a part of me wants to go, of course it’s okay, but then a part of me thinks, wow, I’m taken aback that there’s even the slightest hesitation, because I assume we know that it’s not just for Chinese. But then later on, the same year, a Caucasian brother in our ministry, a young adult, was wanting to get baptized. And he grew up in the church, but he was going to our church for a number of years, and is still there today. And he had told his family, and his white family said, Will they baptize you? Because it’s Chinese. Now he actually had no issues, but again, we’re struck by that.

So that was sort of a, that’s an issue. Like we have this set of problems that we’re encountering with those words and those names. The original planters of all these churches, immigrant ethnic churches, it just made sense. You know, First Baptist or First Presbyterian. What they really meant is First White Baptist or First White Presbyterian because they just didn’t use that word because that’s the normal phrase. Like why would you say American food? You would say food, right? They don’t call it Chinese food in China. They just call it food, right? And so when we’re here, that’s one of the struggles. That was one of the problems it was having. And you know, the world doesn’t need more jargon and the evangelical world does not need more jargon for the sake of jargon.

But the other big issue that I was running into was I call it changing the C, as in letter C. It’s actually, I think we’re past that moment now historically, but in the name of biblical diversity and revelation, like all people, tribes, and tongues, there was a push. I think we actually are past that in some respects of like, every church should be multiethnic type of thing. And so a lot of energy went to, well, let’s reach more people. And as you know, the church in general, but Asian immigrant churches were losing people because maybe the kids weren’t staying. And so, out of pure desperation, the older immigrant cultures were like, okay, what do you need to maybe keep the kids from leaving the English congregations? And I think a lot of pastors said, we need to be multiethnic. So functionally, get rid of the C, change the C. So from blank Chinese church, it’d be blank community church or Christian church or something. That phenomena really created an issue because the older folks were like, or the immigrants, the ones who really had an identity there, it’s like you’re erasing our culture and identity of where we’re coming from.

Some of the newer folks or younger folks are more―that’s not always it went by age―but some of the folks that were pushing for these things were like, well, we shouldn’t just be for this. So I wanted to come up with something that would help me capture a church that has a heritage or a past of a certain kind, but that historical past, as much as we should honor and value it, does not necessarily need to limit the future. So I was literally thinking and praying to myself, literally one day I said, How can I have a phrase or somehow capture the Chinese heritage of our churches?

And so then I started using it not as a phrase, but more like as a saying in my sermons. But then quickly I realized that’s just easier to say. It’s a Chinese heritage church. And it has the benefit of two things. When someone who cares about this hears the Chinese heritage church, they don’t really hear the word heritage, but they hear the word Chinese is still in it, and they’re good. We can move on. We can work together. But someone who’s really wrestling with the future of immigrant churches, asking the question, or what if I’m not ethnographically Chinese? Like, what does it mean for me? When I say Chinese heritage church, they go, okay, you didn’t say Korean church or Chinese church or Japanese church. You added this other word. I think I know, but what does it mean? And I say, it’s a church with a Chinese heritage in the past. And it, I think recognizes it and honors it, but only the Lord knows what the future will be. And so they hear that and they basically, everyone hears what they need to hear to move on, but it really does honor the past, at least in my hopes; it honors the past and it really retains it while leaving open how the Lord will lead in the future.

A very close analogy might be in the U.S., you know, historically black colleges and universities, HBCU. Like, you’re not gonna erase the fact that there was a time that’s the only place a black college student could go to get education. It’s so critical and central to their history and their identity. Of course, many of them will take non-black students to this day, but that doesn’t change the past. If anything, we want to remember that because it is a part of who we are. And so you’ll hear me say, I’m not trying to be you know, super, super nitpicky about it. I don’t correct people, but you know, I don’t say Korean church. I say the Korean heritage church, unless I’m talking about the church in South Korea or something like that. I don’t say Chinese church unless I’m speaking of the church in China. Otherwise I will call them all Chinese heritage churches around the world. Sometimes people use diasporic churches or diaspora churches. Kind of talking about the same group, but a very different theological impetus. It’s important to distinction down the road as we think about missiology, but for now, so I’ll say Haitian heritage church, Caribbean heritage church, Chinese heritage church, Swedish heritage church. I’ll use that terminology because I think, and actually I think going today in a world where people are really rethinking their ethnic heritage, including white people, they’re not just white, they’re like, no, I’m actually English or actually I’m German. Like that ethnic revitalization is people really think about their ethnicity and sort of take a healthy sort of pride in it―I think it’s just a different day and age. But the point is that phrase helps me solve a lot of problems and I think addresses them in ways that lets us focus on the ministry.

Steve Chang

So it’s a way for you to honor the past and explain how you got here almost and why you are the way you are without limiting the future.

Enoch Liao

That’s right. So like we said at the Collective, one of the sessions that our event in Dallas was just sharing about churches. And so one of the folks shared about how they’re an English pastor in a Chinese heritage church congregation, and more and more you’re seeing some of the English or second-gen or third-gen people that are leading the overall church because they’ve decided to stay in the older generation and for a lot of reasons is willing to trust or follow some of these American-born Chinese pastors, for example. That’s a Chinese heritage church.

But we also had, as you might know, Ben Pun out there in the West Coast, his church launched out from a Chinese heritage church. But because the whole thing came from a Chinese heritage church and initially was Chinese ethnic folks, I would still call that church, I think it’s called Anchor Church, I would call that a Chinese heritage church, even though they may have a more explicit multi-Asian thing. I’ll even call churches here in Boston. I mean, I won’t name names, you know, I’ll say, it’s a Korean heritage church. Now 20 years ago, they would say, we’re multi-ethnic. I said, yeah, I’m not talking about what your purpose or focus is. You came out of a Korean ministry. But today it’s funny when I call it Korean heritage church, and I won’t say names, but the senior pastors, if they listen to this, they know who they are―they go, their members go, yeah, yeah. But they think I mean Korean. I don’t mean Korean because I know they’re not all Korean, but they’re definitely Korean heritage. And the most acculturated, like non-Chinese, Chinese guy that goes there goes, wow, I thought it was not Chinese, but I’m really Chinese. I’m hanging out with all these other folks that are definitely more, for example, definitely more Korean. So that’s really what we’re trying to do.

Steve Chang

Yeah. I mean, I think I mentioned to you, I had thought that when you use the term Chinese heritage church, it’s talking about a people group as opposed to a particular nation. The ethnic group who identify as Chinese, but from Taiwan, Singapore, Malaysia, and China, etc. And collectively, you’re calling them Chinese heritage. And that could be true also, but the way that you are using it and your motivation, kind of like what you’re saying, the historical black colleges, etc., explaining the past, honoring it without limiting it.

Enoch Liao

Yeah, yeah. But in the recent months, that’s why it is interesting because after or before our last interview also, both before and after, I had some more conversations on a, sort of, with partners from other countries. It’s a similar thing. The Chinese heritage church in Japan or Taiwan, because in the Chinese context, it’s a very different between nationalistically Chinese and like ethno-linguistically or phenotypically Chinese. We already have a phrase in Chinese because people who are leaving who are outside the country of China, they want to have a way to capture that they’re ethnically Chinese, while still distancing themselves from maybe the Communist Party or political affiliations and things. So we already had that, kind of, in the Chinese language throughout the world, which is really interesting. But what they do mean when they say that is, we’re still Chinese. The extension to the church is we’re a Chinese heritage church, which means the church definitely flows out of that great stream of God’s work through the Chinese people, but yeah, only he knows what the future holds. And we really are open to what the Lord wants to do.

Steve Chang

Yeah, this is fascinating. And I know you talk about ethnic revitalization and we’ll talk about that at another time. I’d really like to delve into that because I do agree with you. Compared to let’s say 20 years ago where multi, you know, ethnic ministries, that was the gold standard. That was where we were all striving after the book of Revelation. And there seems to have been a shift in mentality, and greater acceptance from large parts of the evangelical world, not all, but a large part. You’ve been at one church for 21 years now.

Enoch Liao

Going on 25, actually, I think.

Steve Chang

Wow, 25 years. And I know that you’ve had opportunities and you speak nationally, internationally, you write, and you’re known and I know that you had opportunities to move on, if you will, but you’ve stayed grounded in one church, BCC, for almost 25 years. What motivates you to stay at one local expression, to commit to that church?

Enoch Liao

Yeah, well, you said a couple of times, so I gotta say, I don’t know if people really know who I am. So I don’t know if I’m known that long, but that’s very kind of you to say. It’s gonna sound super spiritual and also not very spiritual at the same time. I think the greater sense of calling and clarity you have about that―that can give you strength when you feel weak and that can give you hope when you feel discouraged.

And so throughout my time here, I remember telling my wife early on as we were just starting at this church and also having a lot of friends and colleagues in ministry, some of them years ahead of me in life and in their ministry careers, all those things. So I remember saying to my wife one day, I said, I hope if we ever leave our church like BCC or any church, I hope we don’t do it out of anger, but out of a joyful new sense of calling to someplace new. It did not take very long for me to tell my wife a few months later, I go, Baby, I don’t think we’re spiritually mature enough to commit to that. I just hope that God keeps us faithful to what he wants, right? And I think that really has been the thing. A lot of the times when I’ve really wrestled with leaving, it was, if I had to be honest, it was because I was pretty either discouraged or unhappy.

Sometimes people probably have a sense of, or I’m being held back. I’m not what I should be doing for the sake of the kingdom, you know, not that it’s always vanity or pride, although I don’t know, because you know, that might be part of it. And I can’t, you know, I don’t even, I barely know my own heart, as Jeremiah says, but I definitely can’t look into, presume to look into other people’s hearts. But I think a part of it has always been this calling.

And that being said, I think objectively, God has been very gracious to my church. And so that there are objectively some pretty significant factors about this church and its location and other things that just make it kind of unique. Like, you know, so I do think Pastor Stephen Chin and the healthy church was relatively speaking, compared to other churches, it just has a legacy of positive health, at least when I got there. I know right before I got there, people said it wasn’t super great, but I do think there’s some things that just, it’s a different go. I also think a place like Boston, again, a lot of people coming through, the waters of secularism and urbanism and progressiveness, they’re lapping on what normally would be seen as the conservative shores of the evangelical church, like, progressives are not just far away in some other county, like, you know, we’re in Orange County, they’re somewhere else. We live in this world, and we have to learn to love them with the power of the gospel. And so all of those things are very fruitful for allowing me to grow.

But in the end, it came down to a sense of calling. There was a time I looked at PhD programs here and there, and also, the Lord convicted me to say―I told my wife one day, I realized the only reason I’m looking at PhD programs every few years is because I’m pretty―they all coincided with times I was really unhappy. So like, this is not God’s calling―this is me flirting here. Not to say that being unhappy is not one of the way God uses you to, you know, get a sense of a new leading from the Holy Spirit, but yeah, I could just, that was not, that was the flesh. So, so that’s really one of those big, yeah, ultimately it’s that calling, of course, the graciousness of God to this church and through the church. And now I can say literally all my sons were born into the church and grew up in it, raised here and they’ve moved on to college and other places through this church. And one of my sons is still at this church. One of my other sons is dating someone at our church. So yeah, God’s just really gracious to this church.

So I think it’s a combination of the city, the place, but really I hate to say that it’s just calling. And I know that’s not helpful because some of the people listening will go, well, I don’t know if I have such clarity or I don’t know if I can stay in spite of the clarity of my calling. So I’m not saying this is the reason and like this is the be-all of how to stay, but when you ask me, it really came down to calling. I’ve never had the sense during those years.

But I’ll say one more thing. I believe I had a sense of being at my local church. Yes, I was called to BCC, but actually pretty early on, my call to BCC was part of a larger calling on my life for me and my wife, Karen. So BCC, yes, I’m called to that, but it helps me fulfill what I believe is a greater calling on my life, the bigger, wider calling on my life. Should that calling change, then I’ll have to reevaluate everything. Or should things at BCC like my role or the circumstances or the situation change that I could maybe do good things at BCC by God’s grace, but it wouldn’t be aligned with my calling? I mean, yeah, like my senior pastor, yeah, I think that’s not a secret. Like if I felt like I couldn’t do what God called me to do at BCC, then I’d have to ask him, okay, what does that mean? So, because I have a greater clarity about my life calling, of which BCC, I believe, fits into that, if that makes sense.

Steve Chang

No, no. It makes perfect sense. I know Cory Ishida would talk about, you know, What is your calling? What is your calling? And then what is your ministry assignment? And so it’s more important to know what your calling is. And then God may give you different assignments periodically and change during the lifetime. So we don’t want to never give permission to people who receive a new ministry calling. And so, you know, we’re not destined to stay at one place forever. But still, you know, younger leaders are oftentimes in situations where they feel as if their situation is very dysfunctional or limiting or whatever it is.

By the way, I think you fit in Boston. The academic kind of culture there, I think you’re just a good fit. I don’t know if you’ve become more Bostonian or you’ve always been that way, but I just wanted to say that.

What would you say to younger leaders who are struggling with wanting to be at a place where they’re more appreciated, where their potentials are more fulfilled, etc. etc.?

Enoch Liao

Yeah, yeah, those are, that’s a great question. And I feel like it would be very helpful for that person, whether through good counsel or actual counseling or soul searching or prayer or whatever, to get a sense of that. Because if it’s like, I feel like I’m not appreciated, that’s still a little different than, I feel like I’m not able to do the thing that God wants me to do, which is still a little different than, I feel like I’m not using my gifts to their full potential.

I think in American pragmatism, yeah, you should use your gifts to the full potential. That’s kind of a default. I don’t see that in Scripture. I see Jeremiah languishing, preaching to a nation that would never listen to him. Yeah, so I think that’s a good default in terms of like a baseline common sense. Yeah, if you’re gifted, I the Bible does say, use your spiritual gifts. If you’re gifted to teach, but you’re not able to teach here, then yeah, what does that mean?

That being said, it’s easy for someone, especially when we’re younger, definitely myself, where I can use that and that’s not a change in calling because my calling might have to be what we might call paying your dues or just working up to that space, you know, like the joke was in seminaries in the 90s, no one thought about planting churches. You had to be the height of hubris to dream to plant a church. In the 2000s, everyone and their dog was going to plant a church or maybe start a nonprofit. In the 2020s, up in some of the seminaries I’ve been to, they’re going to skip the church planting entirely. Everyone in seminary, the joke is they want to have a podcast about starting churches. They forget the whole church part in the first place, right? They just want to go straight to being an influencer, I guess. Again, nothing wrong with that calling, but where do we get that experience, the refinement and the practical credibility to even deign to speak into those matters?

Even having this great honor to be on a podcast with you, Steve, like I don’t presume anyone should listen to me because I’m still very much learning anyway. So if someone is feeling that unappreciated, the calling might be to learn to find the encouragement through other ways that God has given you. And that’s a long conversation.

But let me say one thing that I hear a lot. Like, the church needs to change in this way or that way, and I’ve tried so long, and what do I do? And my general response, if you look at Corinthians, the way Paul talks about, in that case, to Christians who are now, came to Christ, but they’re now in marriages with nonbelievers. There’s a couple principles that would take a lot more time to carefully exegete. But I do think if you’re called to be a humble agent of change for the sake of the kingdom, first of all, it’s a big mantle to bear. If you cannot do that with grace and love, you won’t be an effective change agent at all anyway. I don’t think―we’re no good to the Lord being bitter. That’s why I told my wife, I don’t want to leave if I’m bitter. I want to leave if I’m called. But then I realized very early on, like, no, if I’m bitter, there’s no virtue in just staying to my calling, but like be poisonous or toxic or evil to people, that’s not any good. So if you feel called to make a change, God will give you the grace to do that with love and joy. And there’s practical ways to see that. Do you still see the good in people? Can you see their good motives, even if you totally disagree with their decisions or philosophies?

Another key thing is, well, if I leave, if I leave, that’ll really spark the change. So this is secular and Christian―like leaving feels like a good way to make a change because of it, but making a statement is not the same thing as making a change The way to make a change is to continue to be in that system to be still with those people. You can’t make a change if you’re not there. If you are called to leave, and part of your calling to leave is making a statement, then that may be well. But I would encourage people to really see a difference between leaving to make a statement versus leaving to make a statement, so now they’ll really change. Now the reality is probably they’ll go, that’s really sad why that leader left. That is really hard. Even if they want to change though, the person that could have helped guide or provide that insight is no longer in the picture, probably. So, yeah, so really it’s about how do you disciple individuals and organizations for the long haul. And I think that’s usually what it means to stick around. Like, why are you staying? And what are the other options? But like you said earlier, like what Pastor Cory said, how does this season inform your longer life calling and vice versa?

So those are some of the common things, but in general, obviously I believe what James wrote, that the anger of man rarely brings about the righteousness of God. And that’s true for decision-making. So by the grace of God, can we get to a place, even though our circumstances are still very, very, maybe even unfair and difficult? But can we, by the grace of God, get to a place beyond our anger? Even if it’s for a little bit of season of time, so that we can kind of hear clearly. If we’re caught in the fog of bitterness and anger and resentment and discouragement, it is really hard to see clearly the Lord’s leading light. So I think by God’s grace, he clears the fog a little bit through friendship, through encouragement, through repentance. And then we get a sense of direction. The fog closes back in, I’m still bitter, but at least when I was a little sober-minded, I think this is what the Lord wanted me to do, and then make progress with that.

It’s worthy of, honestly, the best thing I would do is sit down across the table and have coffee with someone, just listen to their story and pray with them. And maybe God might give me something useful to say to encourage them, maybe even something useful to potentially be worth thinking about. But I think that’s what really, that’s what we need. You can’t scale encouragement and you can’t scale wisdom. I mean, you can get a good book, but you can’t scale that kind of person-to-person Christ’s love and wisdom coming through someone to me through another person.

Steve Chang

And so it goes back to that which you started talking about. How people who are in driving distance from each other, who have outgoing personalities but didn’t know each other or haven’t met, they haven’t built a deep enough, trusting friendship where they can confide, hey, my heart is being filled with bitterness right now. What does that imply? Just staying sometimes isn’t good, and leaving isn’t going to cause a change necessarily, but sometimes a friend who is in ministry can tell you, hey, you need to repent you know.

Enoch Liao

Right, and to be honest, it’s not a lot of building trust time needed. Once they’re there, they realize, wow, I relate to you, you relate to me. And actually then that distance makes it cleaner. It’s just that they never got to that space to even have that place, to have that conversation in the first place. So I do think that God is interested in us as people, not just our ministry assignments, and God is interested in the relationships and not just our positions. And so, right, like having that encouragement.

And here’s the thing, it’s sort of like, classic example is when an Asian American woman is trying to see a counselor and there’s this white woman or white man that they might see. And I hear this from folks. It’s like, I really would like an Asian female counselor. And when you ask a woman why, it’s because first of I have to explain being a woman to a man. I obviously don’t know what it’s like, but we’ve heard about that. But then I have to explain being an Asian, it’s like too much time to explain to someone that might actually be helpful and even empathetic and maybe even wise, but just to upload, frontload all that time and energy is just so much, that it’s just so exhausting.

That’s kind of the same with pastors and churches. Like, so I’ve been in a lot of wonderful spaces with mostly white pastors. Actually, one of my friends, I will say called me out. were at this New England church pastors gathering of some of the larger churches. I’ve been there for 12, 13 years, an annual retreat. I get to serve on the steering team. And one of my good friends, he said it in great jest or relationship. He’s like, Enoch, you’re sitting over there. Basically, this group is like 13 to 20 white people, maybe one Black brother if he’s there, and once in a while, Latino. Otherwise, they’re Caucasian brothers. And he’s like, you’re taking notes, you’re doing all that, but I know all the stuff we’re talking about is not applicable to your context. And people looked at him like, yeah, actually, it’s very right that it’s not worth translating most of what is said here. Although I’m learning and I like the relationships, but it would just take too long to explain.

And that’s why I think it takes a really unusual Asian American pastor to even be in that space. Because when you got limited energy and bandwidth, why go there unless you’re going to really sort of lean into that sort of majority culture. And again, I’m not saying that’s good or bad, but yeah, it’s interesting to be in that place. I do actually think once you put, it’s almost like cheating. When you put a bunch of Asian American pastors in a room, especially if they’re from largely majority culture spaces, they’re going to feel like a lot of affinity. I mean, it’s not even, need a lot of prayer for that. They’re just gonna talk, they’re gonna bond, they’re gonna pray, they’re gonna cry, they’re gonna laugh. And they’re gonna go back in our modern age with cell phone numbers and text groups, and hopefully some connections that will hopefully be a channel of God’s encouragement to them.

Steve Chang

Yeah, yeah. I’ve had guys tell me that when they’re in their majority culture, megachurch space, they have to like be on, be ready to give an elevator’s pitch, of what they’re doing, what they’re trying to sell, to be extroverted, outside of their normal personalities per se. And some guys just are naturally like that. And we know some of them.But they have to be a little bit unnatural. So, but yeah, good word.

Boy, you know, there’s so much more we can talk about. I wish I can, we can talk about the future of the Chinese heritage church, you know, from your perspective, from your vantage point as more and more you’re going, you are, and you continue to serve as an elder spokesperson, elder statesman for the ABC church, the future for the diaspora and the global way that God can potentially use the Chinese heritage church, ethnic revitalization, all of that. But I think I’ll have to just get you on another time. I love picking your brain. I love learning from you.

But I want to end with this. You’ve been at BCC for 25 years. Some of the people who sit in your pews, I’m guessing, are people whom you’ve known since they were like elementary, junior high, high school days. They’ve grown up and they’ve stayed and you’ve done their marriages and the such. Let’s say we’re gonna play this one-minute clip of this interview on a Sunday service at BCC. I want you to look into the camera as if you’re talking to your congregation, your church family. What is―give them a shout out.

Enoch Liao

Okay, so you’ve ramped that up better because I think in our first interview I said, my church wouldn’t want to shout out. That’s the easiest first thing. They’d almost say, Pastor, you shouldn’t have shouted this out. But I hear what you’re saying. I’m grateful for the church for them being able to let me try to pastor them and learn to love them and forgive me for all the ways I fall short. I’m grateful for them. And actually, at one point when all three of my sons were in the youth ministry, as youth, grade six to 12, all of their counselors and their youth pastor at the time had been my former students at one point in the ministry. They have all, multiple have been met with or discipled by men that I’ve had the privilege to disciple when they were high school, college or young adults now. So it’s a great, sweet thing. And you’re right, I’ve had the chance to do their weddings. I’ve seen their, I’ve dedicated their children and they set my salary and I told Karen like, if I die, this is the perfect age. They’re about 15 to, you know, 10 to 20 years younger than you. That’s the perfect age, because no one takes care of old 80-year-old Asians better than spry 65-year-old Asians. So that’s basically, that’s like, if I’m gone, you should stay here because they’ll just take care of you. Cause they’re about 15 years younger than you. Just kidding, but kind of not really kidding. So grateful for my church and grateful for the chance to see and, and yeah, I don’t know when the Lord will have me leave Boston or leave this world, but, but I’m grateful for that. Doesn’t mean it’s been easy, and it doesn’t mean it’s always been rosy, but I definitely can affirm God’s grace and his kindness in our calling through our church.

Steve Chang

It’s a beautiful image that you’ve painted. You’ve talked about and been real about times that have been hard. And I think it’s helpful to be honest about that. But you’ve painted this picture of how when your boys are in youth group, the people who were discipling them were people that you’ve discipled. And now many of them are leaders in the church. That’s what kind of God desires and is pleased with when he sees the local church.

Enoch Liao

Yeah, you only get that if you’re privileged to stay in the same church for this long. Again, I’m not lifting that up as the best way or somehow more holier. I guess God can give any sort of call that he deems, he willingly wants to call, but that’s just been our call. And there’s definitely, I definitely felt not loneliness, but it’s like, okay, who do I ask around? Like I could ask people who have been at the church five, 10 years. Then when it got to the 10 to 15 years, I thought, okay, it’s getting a few, but they’re still there. 15 to 20? That’s definitely―as I’m rounding out 25 and looking around, there were a bunch of people I could say that were being at their churches 20 to 25 years, but they’re literally retiring before my very eyes. So, I don’t think I’m an elder statesman, but I’m definitely feeling the age part. And so it really is interesting to be at that point in our lives now where there’s more road behind us than in front of us, I believe. And that time is very short and very precious. And we’re trying to make the most of every minute that the Lord gives us.

Steve Chang

Yeah, no, and you’ve heard me talk about it. We are the elders of this generation and we need to steward it well. We can’t, we can’t push away that responsibility that God has given to us. I also am reminded of something that I think Gordon Kirk, I don’t know if he said it first, Lake Avenue Church, said, sometimes we overestimate what we can do in the short run and underestimate what God can do in the long run. And so sometimes, yeah, it does take decades. And as the seeds that we plant, the amount of time that it takes for it to bear fruit and then come back and bear more fruit.

Hey, Enoch, thank you so much for our time together. I so appreciated your wisdom, your godliness. I’m going to schedule another time for us to talk about some of those other topics, okay?

Enoch Liao

Thank you, Steve.

Steve Chang

Thank you.