SLP EP8: Am I a Leader? Featuring Faith Chang

SOLA Network

Welcome to the SOLA Network Leaders’ Podcast, where we amplify the voices of pastors and ministry leaders shaping a gospel future for the emerging generation of Asian Americans and beyond. We hope you enjoy hearing different perspectives from various ministry leaders throughout the U.S.

Will Chang

Welcome everyone to SOLA Leaders’ podcast. I’m Will Chang, one of the board of trustees. And today we had the opportunity to engage and to talk and learn from Faith Chang, who is an author, a blogger, servant leader. She wears many hats because she generally is one of the most gifted people that I’ve come across. So Faith, thanks for joining us. Thanks for taking time to talk to us and that we can learn from you.

Faith Chang

Thanks Will, I’m excited.

Will Chang

Yeah, and then maybe we could start, like I normally like to do, to kind of go back into your background and share a little bit about yourself. Where did you grow up? How did you develop the skills and interests that you have today? And now share a little bit about your background, please.

Faith Chang

Yeah, it depends on how long you want me to talk for. But I know we’re not talking about my whole life story here. Let’s see. So I grew up in New York. That’s where we are now. My husband and I and our four kids, we serve at a church on Staten Island, New York, one of the five boroughs of New York City. I grew up in Brooklyn, New York, went to school in the city and kind of generally was on the East Coast through my church experience growing up in small, smaller Chinese immigrant churches, and then went away for college, did campus ministry out on the West Coast for a few years after graduating, came back, did seminary, got married, and are serving in a local church now. So that’s like the general broad strokes of my life, but feel free to ask about anything specifically from there.

Will Chang

No, I think, yeah, that’s great. I know that we both went to Westminster Philly, Westminster seminary in Philly. What years were you there?

Faith Chang

I was there in 2009 to 2011. I believe that’s when it was. It feels like a long time ago, which I guess it was. When were you there, Will?

Will Chang

I think even longer ago. I was there from 2004 to 2008. I think we barely passed each other for a couple years.

Faith Chang

Right, okay, so we just missed each other.

Will Chang

Yeah. Well, that’s great. Then campus ministry were you serving when you went out to California?

Faith Chang

It was a―it wasn’t a large campus ministry, it was a campus ministry that was affiliated with one of the local churches there when I was out there and so.

Will Chang

That’s great. Well, Faith, maybe we could start off, and there’s a ton of different questions that you have to kind of pick your brain and your experiences, both in terms of gender, but also in terms of Korean American versus Asian American, maybe even Japanese American. But maybe we could start off, and then if you wouldn’t mind sharing about your leadership experience? You could start anywhere you want, maybe campus ministry or even now at any point, both in broader leaderships. I know you’re one of the board of trustees for SOLA. But how has that experience been like for you as an Asian American woman? How has that leadership experience been for you, if you want to share about that?

Faith Chang

Mm-hmm. So like I said, I grew up in Chinese churches. I’m sure we’ll unpack some of this later, but I do think it’s important to distinguish what I mean when I say my Asian American experience because it’s kind of located in Chinese church, but also Chinese immigrant church, but also East Coast. And so there are many different types of experiences depending, like even within the Chinese church depending on where in the Chinese American church depending on where you are in the United States.

But I think just even fundamentally as I thought about this question of leadership and how being in the Chinese church shaped me in thinking about leadership, I think one thing is that I actually never thought of myself as a leader. So even as you ask that question, I’m like, hmm, am I a leader? And 

I remember applying, not for Westminster, but applying for another program, grad program in a seminary. And they asked, what do you think about leadership? And how will this help in your leadership? And then as I went through my experiences, I think there were many things that could be―even from when I was young, like growing up, probably a lot of us, like growing up in youth group, I was, you know, I think they called them servant leaders in our church. You know, where I was trained in how to, how do you lead a Bible study? How do you write a Bible study? Or even before that, like as a young child, kind of thinking back, back, I think after I became a believer, after I accepted Jesus into my heart, I was like an eight year old. The church that I was a part of, asked if I would give a testimony, as an eight year old. I stood in front of the stage and gave my testimony. And I think I said it in Cantonese too. So I remember asking my parents, you know, how do you say A for admit and B for believe and C for confess? Cause I wanted people to hear this is how you became a Christian.

And yeah, I was part of the worship team, all these things, and after that, on campus ministry in my college, served at a ministry that was mostly, it was student-run and mostly Chinese Americans. And I served on the team there and it was also, it was called a servant team. And after that, after going to campus ministry, I did discipleship, discipled women, taught and led Bible studies, evangelized. And after that in kind of the local church now I have done different things. I think that’s just not necessarily because of my great gifting, but because that’s what happens in a small church. It’s kind of all hands on deck. Wherever you can serve, then you serve. So I’ve done kids ministry, but I’ve also formatted bulletins, but I’ve also you know, taught adult Sunday school, and now I work with teens teaching our high schoolers because, I mean, I love them, but that’s also our need at our church right now, because like I said, small church. I’m sure a lot of our listeners know what that’s like.

But all that to say that in all those things, I think there are things that people might be like, you’re a leader, but I think one thing that maybe I have appreciated and have learned and kind of internalized from being in the Chinese American context is church context is really understanding what it means that leaders are like servants. But it’s not even like you’re thinking if I’m a leader, I’m a servant. Just the context for what it means to be part of the church and to have gifts and to utilize your gifts is serving. Like, how do you serve?

And I think it’s different in different cultural contexts, but especially in the Chinese church, there isn’t for better and for worse in the states. And I think this is again a generalization―but as I look at our Korean American brothers and sisters in their churches and how the past, the position of pastor or the position of leader is a position of honor. And as in many ways it ought to be, but an authority. But it’s not quite the same in the Chinese American setting in terms of maybe how we see pastoral work or see pastors. I hear from our Korean American brothers and sisters, you might not want your kids to be pastors, but you will show honor to your pastors.

But in the setting of the Chinese American church, kind of our pastors are, and in a good way too, are seen more as like people. They’re just like a brother in Christ, but and a leader, and they could be honored for the way that they serve, but it isn’t like an automatic, like you have the title, you have the position, and so you have honor, if that makes sense. It’s kind of like an earned thing, for better or for worse. And I think though that that has definitely impacted the way that I’ve seen how I move through whatever life and what opportunities God has given me because that mentality of, okay, if you’re on stage, then you’re truly a leader, or if you have this role, then you’re a leader, versus God has given us different gifts for different purposes and at different times, your local church or the church as a larger church will need and lean on that gifts in different times, and whether or not that’s a position where people would call it leadership or not, that’s not really so much the framework.

So I think, I don’t know if that’s asking or answering your question as much as I feel like fundamentally it’s just a different framework that I have received and that I’m grateful for because that’s what like Paul talks about, right? He’s, you we preach―we came to you, right, preaching Christ and ourselves as servants, like for Christ’s sake. And from, think, for many, depending on the context where you came from, you’re first thinking like, I’m a leader, and then what kind of leader will I be? I will be a leader like Paul was a leader. But the language of just being a servant of Christ, being a servant of God’s people is much more prominent than being called a leader. And not that there aren’t, not that authority, you know, doesn’t matter, not that being a head doesn’t matter, but I do feel like the way that we use our words and the way that we frame what it means to be a pastor or what it means to be serving in God’s ministry, or in God’s church, in ministry, it is influenced by some of those cultural―just what we even conceive of and our language too. 

Will Chang

Thanks for sharing that. Yeah, that’s great. I do want to come back to the topic about sort of the differences between Korean American and Chinese churches with respect to the pastors. I would love to pick your brain about that. But before we go there, would you say whether you gave your first testimony at an elementary or even now, did you always feel as an Asian-American woman free to exercise your gifts in leadership? Because I definitely think you’re a leader in many ways, especially if we define leadership broadly as just having a positive influence, moving people towards a direction. So you’re definitely a leader, which is great. Did you always feel that your church or organizations noted that? That it was encouraged? Did you feel free to exercise your gifts in leadership or was it something you had to as a Asian American woman walk on eggshells, sort of look behind your shoulder? Or what was that experience like for you?

Faith Chang

I had a really great experience, I think, that I have come to see only in my adulthood isn’t the case for every sister in Christ, which I grieve. And at the same time, I think because of the positive experiences that I’ve had―I’ve had negative ones along the way and I’m sure we can talk about that―but in those foundational years through like growing up and through maybe up until college, had such positive experiences that in some ways, and I think about it, like I feel like a little bit―I don’t know if you watched Barbie, did you watch Barbie?

Will Chang

I did, yeah, I saw it in the theater when it came out.

Faith Chang

I haven’t watched for a long time, so I could be getting this wrong, but I do feel like that―kind of being in that world where I was, I don’t think the primary―again, the lens that we bring, the framework really makes a difference. I don’t think I ever was treated like I wasn’t a woman or wasn’t a girl, right? But that wasn’t like the leading factor when I came to interactions with people, whether it be my leaders in seeing, hey, you have something to share. You have something that could bless people. So, why don’t you step into this position? Or even in my church or parachurch organizations in Chinatown, New York, where I was asked to pray at this church gathering with all these leaders and pastors. And I was like a teenager and I’m like, I don’t know what I was praying. I’m pretty sure there was a bit of hubris there like, God bring unity. You know, like, we are so divided. And I’m just so humbled when I think about it. I’m like, why? There were just really I think about it now. I think there were just really humble people that were around me. I had leaders and pastors or people who weren’t necessarily―I didn’t feel like they were saying, hey, you’re going to be this one day and so we’re gonna give you this opportunity to become this but I think it was more like they just treated me like a sister in Christ, like a person who bore the image of God who is part of the kingdom of God who is part of the church of God and that had―I don’t even know that it was like, she has a gift.

I don’t know, maybe I should ask them, but I think I that was helpful but also having examples around me I was in church and in the Chinese churches I was part of, women were not pastors, but they were involved just heavily in every level of the church, right? And so part of it without realizing it, I think it was just being used to seeing people who are leading the missions committee, seeing women, you know, missionaries share upfront, but also those like having conversations, seeing how men and women talk together and how my mom was a really large has been and still is a very large part of my understanding of what it means to be a woman of God, but what it means to just be a follower of Jesus, a disciple of Jesus. So she, know, stay at home mom, but when she was pregnant with me, actually she went to seminary for a certificate. You know, she was like, I was learning Bavinck, and I was learning, reading these things, and I had no idea what I was doing in Hong Kong, actually. And so I think I just grew up seeing her both disciple women. We’d be, they’d be having a dinner and she’d have this one-on-one conversation with a woman. And then by the end of the night, she’s praying for her, right? And that’s just a natural part of life. But I also saw her going like, you know, having conversations with the pastor, having conversations with the younger men or older men, where they’re talking about the church or they’re talking about ministry. They’re talking about, hey, this book isn’t really the greatest in terms of biblical theology. And she’d push back on people. And I think I saw her respected.

It wasn’t a thing that was like, you’re a woman so you shouldn’t speak like that. Or you’re a woman and so we care about it, but only as much as it pertains to women’s issues. But it was just that her mind, her spirituality, and mine and other women was always respected and received as just part of what it means to be part of the family of God, so that I never felt like, you know, in a complementarian setting, I never had to feel like, well, if I don’t―since I can’t be the pastor―I can’t have any kind of influence or impact or I don’t matter, and women’s voices don’t matter, if that makes sense.

Will Chang

Yeah, it does. If I could ask a follow-up question about that. So first of all, it’s a wonderful experience and testimony you gave about that to be able to just freely use your gifts and to lead in ways that God has called you. It sounds like, and you correct me if I’m wrong, that much of that in terms of having a good experience of leadership as an Asian American woman is sort of just built into the culture of Chinese Americans or just Chinese culture in general. Is that safe to say or is it something about the particular cultures of the churches or organizations that you served at, whether Baptist or Presbyterian or nondenominational―how would you attribute it? Was it the leadership that would be, I don’t know, the board of elders that set the culture of organizations, or is it more just the culture of Chinese Americans?

Faith Chang

Yeah, that’s a good question. And I definitely would have to preface it with saying that I’m not a scholar or a researcher in these levels―I mean, on this topic. I think more of it is like experiential or people that I’ve spoken to. But but for me, I think I mean, I’m now that you mention it, probably denomination has to do with it, like church structure probably has to do with it too. But, and I think also maybe church size, like when I think about it, where I think when you’re in a― but I don’t know, maybe―although I think women were in positions of leadership, like roles, and so. But I do think that maybe in comparison to other, just culturally, in other places, I think as I’ve talked to women or just heard some other experiences, it can differ depending on, yeah, I don’t know. I’m trying to if you I don’t know if you can’t tell trying to be careful just to nuance because it’s I don’t want to speak in broad generalizations that are unhelpful.

Even like regionally, I think even for helpful as an outsider, like, for example, thinking about our like white sisters and or Caucasian or, you know, churches or, you might call them multiethnic, but majority culture really. I think regionally it depends, right, whether or not you’re from this, yeah, what your expectations are, what expectations are held out for you as women in general, and then how that kind of plays into then what it means to be a woman in the church. And so I do feel like it’s a mix of all of that, and as I’ve talked to different women and processed my own experience, I think there is that cultural element, where maybe ethnically, there’s the expectations that I have experienced that are for a lot of like, maybe Chinese women are different than for example, like our Korean American sisters. And I think I could say that that’s true, like in general, because every culture is different, every culture has different expectations.

And yeah, so that even like my grandfather, for example, was saying like, you know, he―for part of my story is that I thought I was going to be on the medicine track, and when I decided not to, he was very disappointed. But he’s like, I don’t care if it’s a girl or a boy. If it’s daughters, same, and you should have done this―before he knew Jesus. And so I think, yeah, there is less of that, probably because of a lot of historical reasons and what’s happened in China and Hong Kong and influences of the West or influences just of different political movements that have swept through China, good and bad, that―I don’t have the, I think, definitely not my lane. It’s more like observing it downstream.

But I do also think that some of that, I wonder if is shifting as more Chinese American churches kind of have come into this more like Reformed-ish spaces and are learning downstream from majority culture, or complementarian churches. And I do feel like, without―it’s important that we’re aware of the assumptions that some of those teachings have in terms of what it means to be a woman that is actually heavily influenced by their cultural background as well. I don’t know if that makes sense.

Will Chang

It does. I expected a follow-up and feel free to answer in any way that you’d want. But kind of keying off on that last point, would you maybe dig into that and share a little bit more about that, where you’re saying that Chinese churches may see a slight shift depending on as they kind of get more engrossed into Reformed theology and how that may have influenced church leadership in a certain way. Like what do you mean by that? If you could elaborate a little bit about that. And also under that umbrella, which is really interesting, if, I’m assuming that, or correct me if I’m wrong, if you’ve primarily been in a complementarian framework, whether church or other organizations, and―how does that play out for you, that you also feel fully free and empowered, and not just to have a seat at the table, but to be celebrated and to have a voice at the table, but all in a complementarian framework, how does that work for you? How does that play out? It seems like there’s a good model there, something very beneficial there.

Faith Chang

Yeah, yeah, okay, so I’m going to try to keep both questions in my mind. But if I forget, just feel free to remind me of what the question was. And if I end up going the wrong way―if you’re like, that’s not what I was asking, feel free to let me know.

I think for the first one, I think why I say that is because I’m just aware that my experience might not be everybody’s because of time and culture shifts and change and different impacts―different things are impacting each generation of leaders. I see that, I mean, even this doesn’t have to do with the Chinese church, but I see that even at the seminary that I went to, like I actually had a generally positive experience. I think what was hard was not seeing maybe examples of women in, as I kind of wandered into the Reformed world, where kind of implicitly it kind of started becoming like, does that mean I shouldn’t be up there? Especially if this complementarian position is from the Bible. But still, when I was at seminary at the time, I remember even my doctrine of the church professor saying, who is teaching from a point of view that says that women shouldn’t be elders, was saying like, hey, you know, men, like if you don’t have women who are speaking into your elders meetings, like you are being foolish. Basically he said that, you know, because they’re some of the most godly women that I know. Some of the most, I mean, some the godly leaders that I know, some of the most helpful preaching that I’ve, or teaching that I’ve received. He probably didn’t call it preaching. He probably called it―I think he said testimony sharing, know, like growing up it was testimony sharing, you know―that I received was from women. And so for you to miss out on that is very foolish.

So even in that context, but I think even Nicolette wrote about it in our recent SOLA article about her experience in seminary and how that was different. Even between there, I remember speaking to somebody―and I had really good positive experience with peers who I felt like treated me as, ee, I want to say equal, but what I really mean is like a person, like you have a mind and what you think is not lesser because you’re because we don’t think women should be elders, right? You have insight on on the Word of God as a person that God has made and as someone who is different, you know, from me like, as a person. But I do know that there were, even between Nicolette and myself, just a couple of years after me, someone saying, how in small group setting, she was kind of like, they were just really not listening to her, or one of the men, right? And then when she actually finally said something, he was like, oh, did you come up with that yourself? And she’s like, yeah. And this woman, she’s like, brilliant. She went to Harvard. And she’s godly.

So I’m like, what is behind that? What is behind that? I’m sure some of it is that young man or a younger man’s experience with other women, like maybe not necessarily talking to women or learning from them, maybe even in an educational setting. I don’t know, I don’t wanna like dump too many things on there. But I think what has grieved me though, coming back to that other question is that I have seen people who kind of shift, not necessarily in Chinese setting, and actually not Korean setting either, who I have interacted with on that level in terms of like intellectual, you know, peers, right? Just peers. And maybe that’s the question. That’s what I want to say, peers, not equals.

That because of this like very kind of importing of cultural standards into complementarianism with and then also just with it a kind of attitude of dismissal, like, because we have to push back against these feminists that are so wrong that it’s just like a dismissing of even the person, like of people. And you can’t have that attitude without it influencing the way you see women and peers. Like I’ve seen how it has impacted what they even think their kids, their daughters can do, you know? And that isn’t necessarily like a biblical teaching. Like if the only thing is, you know, whether or not there are certain offices, right, that women, like according to, if you’re in the PCA, we’re not part of the PCA, PCA, you know, according to BCO, not elders, right, or something like that, then why would you celebrate women or young women, you know, or a child even, thinking that women can’t teach anything or women shouldn’t be speaking? And that’s very grievous to me that is actually like this, from this outside voices that seem to speak with authority and so convincingly, and yet with such cultural blind spots.

Like, even, you know, I remember I was reading a book that I pretty much agreed with this like prominent author about what they think about women in the church. And then there was just like this throwaway line which, or just, which was, you know, if a husband and wife, if a husband―if they’re making decisions about where to live or something like that, it should just be according to where the men’s profession is, career comes first. And for me, I was just like that, there’s just so much, there’s just such a jump there in terms of maybe even assumptions about what it means to follow God’s calling, like why is it wrapped up in career? Or I remember to my husband, I’m like, am I wrong on this? Like, how would you counsel a couple? And he was like, I would say, like, pray. And I’m like, yeah, like, why would that not, like, why would that not be the first thing that came up? Like, why is there an assumption that there’s either a call for a man or a call for a woman? And then it’s like, well, then because of leadership or submission, then that has to come first, right? 

And so I think even Tim Keller talked about how, know, within the context of marriage, complementarian, you know, they’ve only actually had to make a decision out of that, the framework of submission once, and that was moving to New York, right? And I think, yeah, I think the grievous thing to me is seeing that in the church, or even seeing that as Chinese American or Asian American women kind of learn the Scriptures, or maybe enter into Reformed theology from wherever they were before, then kind of taking on this burden and this framework that is actually very, very Western maybe or maybe culturally bound when it comes to authority.

I think I recently was looking over this book, I don’t know if you heard of it, called Neither Complementarian Nor Egalitarian by Michelle Lee Barnewall, I believe. And it’s not that she’s saying you should do neither, but I think what she was doing, she was just pushing against the idea of like framing everything in terms of authority or equality. And kind of we could talk about that after. But I remember talking to a woman who was again like learning these things and she was asking me about marriage and she was saying, you know, how do you submit to your husband? And I was just, you know, and it’s not that I don’t believe that that’s true. And it’s not that I don’t believe that my husband’s the head, but that is not the framework in which I am generally operating, right? There’s so much, and I told her there’s so much more in the Scriptures about what it means to love somebody, what it means to be selfless in the way that you care for the other person, what it means to speak with gentleness and kindness and truth and grace, and that we don’t even have to go there most times.

And so I feel like―sorry, circling back to your question, I don’t know if this is making sense, is that, okay, is that, I think what grieves me―because this was actually part of it, was a little bit of my experience where I came from that setting, and then I walked into, first this, a different kind of Asian American, not Chinese American setting, where the gender roles were very, very much defined by culture, so, where even many, many years in the future, I was told, like, you’re the pastor’s wife, that means being this, you know? And I was like, and I was able to be like, mm, no, not really, but thanks. But I think if I had internalized that and grown up with that the whole time, that would have been really difficult. So there was that. And then it was being at this kind of Reformed-ish world, even reading books, seeing speakers and, nd not so much people I was with where I did internalize, like started internalizing like, well, do I have anything to say? Like really? You know, if I say something, am I kind of treading upon this like authority issue that is unbiblical?

I do feel grieved that that is, first of all, that that is the case that there are women who are growing up like that. Like I had women, you know, women who said, who’s again, very thoughtful, very gifted. And you would think that she, because she’s up front, singing, that you would think she had this confidence, but then later on she was telling me, that’s what I grew up thinking that a woman can only do that in the church. And so I could be a singer or a worship leader, but I didn’t know that I could think about theology, right? Or even a woman being like, I had to―I thought that being a woman in church meant I planned these things in these parties, these baby showers, and I cook in the kitchen. And these are like ministries that are, it’s not that they’re important, but side note, in our church, the men cook too. So that was never even a thing for me in Chinese churches. But we have our own―I’m not saying we’re right about everything.

But I think like I even started feeling, hey, do I have anything to say? Like, do I have, is this the more biblical way than this other way that I’ve experienced? Even though if I really step back and think about it, it’s not like I wanted to be or challenged the authority of a pastor or wanted to be an elder even. Just personally, that’s never been something that I even desired. And it has taken a lot of the grace of God, like definitely my husband being like, just do it to serve. Again, like whatever you speak, whatever you say, whether you’re standing on a stage or whether you’re writing, if you feel like it can serve people, then you serve. Or brothers who I wrote with after seminary were really like―where I was like, is this important?―and who said, no, this is really important. We need to hear your voice about this. And it wasn’t about women’s issues necessarily, actually at all, most of the time, or even about being Asian American, but just about insights that I thought were important for God’s people to hear. And so that, I definitely lost your question along the way, Will, I’m sorry.

Will Chang

No, you didn’t. You actually, you touched upon very insightful, important areas that do relate to the question I asked. If I get a little bit more pointed and to pick your brain―because you did make a very good point that as an Asian American woman, part of it is just treating people as people made in the image of God equal dignity, honor, and they have intellect and insights. And when I was pastoring back in California, some of the most helpful and insightful points were made by the sisters on my staff or just leaders within the church. So I absolutely agree with that.

How do you―and this may be just more the Presbyterian PCA governance within the church. I think you touched upon it because you don’t approach every relationship through the grid of authority, but maybe through service and love and openness. But as within a complementarian, maybe Presbyterian framework, how do you process or does it―do you struggle with that sort of governance where a female can’t be a ruling elder and you don’t have a vote on the governing board? We call it a session in the Presbyterian, but that position is not open and so you can assume that there’s freedom and the session or pastors really engage you and want your input and insights, but at the end of the day, you’re not allowed to become an elder and ordained, and you don’t have a vote. Does that sit well with you? How do you process that? It seems like it’s not even on your grid, which is very interesting. You don’t want to approach everything through necessarily an authority framework, but as you mentioned, just through service and finding a need for the kingdom and trying to meet that need with a God-given gift. What are your thoughts about that? How do you think about that in a complementarian framework?

Faith Chang

Yeah, I am not part of the PCA or a Presbyterian church, so I think there is a difference in terms of church governance.

Will Chang

Is your church―is it congregationalist?

Faith Chang

Our church is―my husband’s ordained with the CRC, our church is currently in the RCA. So their church structure is so that deacons have a vote. I’m sure there are listeners that would be like, what? Like, I’m gonna turn off what she’s saying. But I’m not―like the thing is like, I’m not a deacon, I’m pretty sure I will never be be nominated because my husband’s the pastor. And so, but I think maybe, so I don’t know that I can answer that question straightforwardly.

I mean, it’s helped me conceptually to be like, well, when I thought about the office of pastor, where I was like, well, it’s not just all women―it’s not just women who can’t be pastors. There are many people who are not pastors in the church. And I think maybe for me, what has helped is that just because I’m not an elder or a pastor or a deacon, right, doesn’t mean that I don’t have influence. And it’s not that I’m seeking influence, but I think it’s kind of that idea, like what you said is where your staff, they gave you valuable insight that you received and took and that made a difference in the health of the church.

And so I think like for women who want a vote, right, it’s not necessarily―I don’t know, I can’t speak for everybody―but I think it’s because we care about the church, like we want our church, we want our churches to be flourishing, we want our churches to make decisions that are honoring to Christ and good for the flourishing of the whole congregation. And so I think ideally, I know this might be ideal, but like ideally speaking, to me, I don’t care who’s making that vote, you know, like who’s making that, who the one is that’s making those choices as long as those choices are good, right? And so I feel like, maybe this is again tangential, when I started working on our team―I’m not working there anymore―I had to step down just to make space for family and other things and work and ministry. But I was working at the Westminster Bookstore team. Shout out to the Westminster Bookstore team. I loved them, the people that are there.

Will Chang

It’s all online now. There’s no physical.

Faith Chang

It is, it is. But it’s a small team and I worked really part-time, like super part-time. And one of the first evaluations that we had, I had to kind of give feedback and one of the questions that I had to give for my direct supervisor was, I had to answer was like, do you agree one to five? Like I am a valued and important member of the team. I think I was kind of like, I’m like super part-time so, I don’t want to say five―maybe it’s Asian―I don’t want to be like five, I’m like super important and I’m super valued. And so then I said four, I was like four, I guess? And then my supervisor, when we met, he was like, I noticed that you said four. And he was just so concerned. He was just like, is there any reason why you didn’t feel like five? And I was like, oh, it’s just because I’m part-time. And then he’s like―and he’s like, okay, no, but like you are so valued and so like needed and we appreciate this input, this input, these things that you do on our team.

And it’s not just that he said it, right? It’s that like I got to see my input make a difference in what was happening in the church. And it’s not that I always made those decisions, but the ones that I think were like, important, right, were received with humility and made a change. And so it’s not that―and I hope, I mean, I guess it can sound like I’m looking for influence or something―but I think it’s more like if there is this interdependence, you know, there has to be a framework in your church, however it looks, where it’s not just like a kind of, we value, we affirm that women are made in the image of God. We affirm these things that are true, but like, what is the experience of women who are in leadership, women who are gifted and who are spiritually mature and that are godly? If they’re there, right, and if we’re willing to be there, obviously we’re like, okay, we’re not trying to, or they’re not going to be trying to overthrow the church governance.

But the frustration I can imagine would be like, well, it’s actually whether or not, not just that you want to listen to me or you’re giving me these kind of opportunities in a public facing way to do these public things, but is my input truly necessary and valuable? Thinking about women in the Corinthian church prophesying, right? Like they prayed in public, they prophesied. And Paul, Romans 16:10, I think, saying all these people that he was coworkers to greet, like 10 out of 20-something, 30, were women, right? And so, like, is there that culture in that church? And Jesus, like, he actually depended, and his disciples depended on women to supply their needs, right? So is there this dependence on the women that are in your church, just in general in church culture? I’m sure this extends to more than just elders and women. Like, okay, as an elder, are people who are not elders treated not only with respect and dignity? Of course nobody would ever say I look down on them, but do what they think, do their insight, does their voice matter?

I feel like maybe that, if you are working from this certain church governance, that might be helpful to ask, not in just a defensive way, like, we’re doing this for women, and we’re doing this, and we’re doing this, but like honestly, and humbly receive, like, do you feel like truly you are a colaborer in the Lord? And I think in my settings, like, and in SOLA, right, but also in our church, or in different ministry opportunities that I’ve had, truly feel like, well, are like men and women co-heirs with Christ, colaboring with Christ, like interdependence in that way so that I can flourish. And I think the women that are in those settings are able to flourish without, while still submitting to the church governance structures. Does that make sense?

Will Chang

That does make sense. One last question generally in this topic, then I want to switch gears to a different aspect of servant leadership. And maybe if we zoom out a bit, and I know generalizations aren’t always helpful, but sometimes there’s still some fruit there. When you look generationally between Asian American women, from baby boomers to Gen Z, sort of the typical assumptions about the younger generations, millennials and Gen Z. They’re more into technology, they’re more into the culture, definitely more passionate about certain aspects of justice. Do you see a difference in terms of a generational difference in approaching Asian American women leadership? Do you see different emphases between the generations or is it just sort of depend? So I know we talked about geography in America, even globally. But just wanted to get your thoughts generationally, if there’s anything that struck you in terms of emphases that different generations of women would emphasize when it comes to leadership.

Faith Chang

Yeah, that’s a good question. I don’t know that I would have any . . . well, do you feel like there’s a difference in men and women? Like, what do you feel like is the difference? What do you feel like is the difference?

Will Chang

I think so. Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I think so. I mean, think that there’s―generalizations aren’t always helpful―but I think I forgot where I heard this, but on a podcast and it wasn’t just Asian American people, but when it comes from like baby boomers and Gen X to millennials, you know, it’s a different way to manage them because they approach authority a little bit differently. And so for example, the baby boomers, they just, you you tell them how high to jump and, just a jump and they’ll just say, how high? They just want to do well they want to succeed and it’s about the broader place of the role to help the organization or culture, you know.

Gen X, which is which is me, and they say it’s a latchkey kid generation so they came hope you come home and parents are working and you have to figure out your afternoon snack and turn on the TV throughout homework and so you learn basically how to do life by yourself, so that’s sort of in that generation the generalization is that you can’t really micromanage them because they’re used to doing everything themselves. Give them the broad directive, but don’t meddle in micromanagement because they can’t stand that.

And then the millennial perspective was that, they call this, I don’t know if I’m going to get in trouble for this, they’re sort of like the millennials are sort of the, you know, the co-consulting generation from the parenting family standpoint because, and I think I’m probably guilty of this too, where like with our parenting is like, what would we like to do today? What would you want to eat today? What TV do you want to watch? Do you want to go here for vacation? So it’s a lot of . . . So that kind of one perspective is that built the younger generation to say that they’re always in the room for decisions that are made and they’re valued and seen and they’re always co-consultants. And so when they don’t have that in organization, then it could breed, hey, this is lack of transparency. There’s a misuse of power because that’s sort how they grew up. So I thought that was helpful.

I’m not sure what that experience may have been for an Asian American woman or even more granularity on that. So I just wanted to see if you have any thoughts about that―it seems like you mentored a lot of even younger men and women, perhaps. And so I just wanted to see what your thoughts were about that.

Faith Chang

Yeah, I’m sorry, I’m laughing because I’m like, I can see that. And I think I know what you mean. Also, because I’m going to defer on some of the generalizations because I probably―I’m like, probably I would get in trouble, but also probably because I feel like it’s coming from a place for me where I, you know, you’re getting older, when you start being like, oh my gosh, those young people. And so I think, and I think that what I’m trying to, yeah, I think what I’m trying to learn in some of those maybe tendencies where like, think Gen Z in general, I don’t know about women, are a lot more like, kind of like, when it comes to this idea of like servanthood, and maybe it is like more about boundaries than it is about service, more about like, yeah, a position than―I don’t know, that’s the generalization too. I don’t think that’s true for everybody. But maybe this is that first part, I think it is kind of true, where it can feel like, well, can’t you guys just take a little more? 

You know, like, but I think was actually helpful to listen. It was actually listening to Amy Poehler’s new podcast, The Good Hang. I don’t know if you heard about it. Where, you know, because I think they’re like they’re older too. And then there are people that are come on and they’ll be like, oh my goodness, Gen Z. But then I think she’s just like, no, but I feel so hopeful. She’s like, I feel so hopeful in, you know, and how like they are pushing back against some things and some things about their work ethic or some things about like certain, you know, like about where they stand in terms of individualistic versus like communally. And I feel like maybe that’s the difference. 

Generationally, I wonder if it’s not just, I don’t know, this is just off the top of my head, not only about like, a kind of Gen Z, millennial, but like maybe first and second gen, and third gen, because I mean, I’m second gen, so after me is like third gen, so I think it also depends in terms of that. And of course social media and other things like that, but I think what I’m trying to learn to be is like, I need humility, and it’s what I’m learning as someone who’s older. No, this is not your question. I know this isn’t your question, but like, I need humility to be like, hey, what is it that you see? What is it? Do you feel valued? Do you feel like what is important to you is being rightfully considered, even if it’s not, you know, the final say, right, all the time.

And so I’m learning to be more humble and seeing like, you know, I feel like being in the generation where I am now, where you still have leaders that are older than you’re like still thinking about the people before you, especially if you’re like second gen Asian American, always talking about first gen, always talking about what’s happening there. But then having the next generation, it is very humbling. I don’t know about it for you, where you’re like, I feel like I understand the first gen now, where you’re like, I get it, where some of this was actually also about maturity and age and wisdom. But now that I have been able to be self-aware about what was helpful and unhelpful for maybe us, how can we not do the same thing that we accused those before us of doing? It’s not because they won’t say, it’s because they’re like first gen, you know, but they’ll be like, it’s because they’re millennials or it’s because they’re, you know, Gen X, right? And so, I don’t know, not answering your question. That’s just what I’m working through personally, I feel.

Will Chang

Yeah, no, I think that was very helpful. I think it does touch upon the question. And I definitely agree that there’s definitely sort of, as I get older, I recognize that the things I used to blame the first-gen Korean Americans is a lot of it, I’m just repeating and doing that to the younger people under me. And so there’s some things that we too easily brush off as either first or second generation culture or generational, but some of it’s just more about humanity. And it’s just as you get older, how humans are across cultures.

Let me switch gears a little bit and I wanted to touch base, I know still on the topic of leadership, but one of the categories that not only biblical, but you touched upon is the servant leadership, but also part of what the Bible talks about leadership is going to be a suffering leader. Even Jesus, one of his major paradigms of modeling the gospel for us is that before he went into glory, he suffered―and wanted to ask if you’d be willing to share sort of like your life experience. know there’s been some chronic illnesses and challenges in your personal life, and how has that shaped your view of not just life but as leadership? How have you learned about the gospel, as suffering ideally is supposed to push us to lean towards the gospel but it’s not always easy and not always it’s not clean and smooth. And so wanted to glean some wisdom and thoughts on that front from you.

Faith Chang

So a couple years ago, maybe like five years ago, I was diagnosed with an autoimmune arthritis condition. Sorry, I’m just going to move out of the light. Yeah. But it’s a condition that I’ve had, just never was diagnosed ever since I was in high school. And so just for some context, chronic pain that I have kind of dismissed and just kind of pushed through and thought it was different things that pretty quickly, I thought I would have to fight for a diagnosis, but when I finally went in, they’re like, pretty sure you have this, take some x-rays and they’re like, yeah, you have damage already. So let’s start you on medication.

And so for me, what that’s looked like at any in any given moment if I pay attention to it is, I’m in pain, and in many ways it has just been like noise kind of like how there’s that’s how it feels to me, just constant noise. But also one thing that has besides the fact that you know that’s physical pain, that’s also kind of, there’s this fatigue and also brain fog where it all kind of comes together in that it just, in me not being able to do a lot of things, I guess, or as well as I want to, or as much as I want to, or even sometimes not even knowing if I’ll be able to think, right? Like, as a writer, like, I don’t know if I’m going to be able to write today or ever. I don’t know when the next time it is that I can think clearly enough to write something.

And I think for me, maybe a couple, actually it was a years ago at the AALC when, I think it was Harold Kim, who was speaking about 2 Corinthians 12, that I really felt very clearly the Lord graciously speaking to me about this and also some other struggles chronically that I have had in my life. Like, this is your thorn and I give it to you in my kindness to keep you.

And actually that seed was planted many, many years ago when I was out―before even my diagnosis―I was out with one of my friends. She’s also a pastor’s wife, a ministry, colaborer in the Lord, not at the same church, but for many years. And I say this because only a good friend could and probably should say this, which was, I don’t know, I think it talking about being just so tired or being in pain, and she’s just like, well, maybe it’s a good thing. Can you imagine how proud you would be if you could do everything you wanted to do? And I think because she’s a good friend and also because partly it was like a backhanded compliment, like, okay, she thinks I could do a lot of things. She thinks I’m capable.

But I think it was just like a clarity, like a switch to me that I was like, man, like this is the thorn is not only for sufficient grace and power to be made known, but it is so that, Paul, two times, it says in the passage, would not be conceded. And so there’s this pride that for me, you know, has been like a constant struggle, a conviction in my life, learning humility. There is a dependence that I think that I have learned that I am prone to make, which is depending on my own thinking, depending on my own mind, and to not be able to do that. And then throughout just ministry to be like, I can’t, you know, I literally can’t get up or I can’t do these things that I want to do, has I think, kept me close to the Lord and kept me from what I could be, like where any claim, right?

Like even in writing Peace Over Perfection. I’m just so deeply aware that every page that’s written there was a gift from God. Where it wasn’t even like, I have these thoughts, I have to get them down. I think this would be helpful, but God, I don’t even know if I’m gonna be able to sit. I don’t even know if I’m gonna be able to, when is the next, I think being in pain, like I don’t even know when the next time is that I would be able to have clarity to do this. And so in every moment where if I didn’t have that, would it have been from God? Yes. Still would have been grace of God, but I don’t think that awareness continually of it or even like would be, yeah, would be that reality of like in my weakness, this power is definitely shown as being from God―is so much more clear to me.

Even just the keeping power of God, I remember I was sharing at a, speaking at something last year and somebody else was asking me afterwards, like, about kind of whether I was afraid of what people were thinking of me, things like that. And I could honestly be like, nope. I didn’t even think about it because the whole time I had a headache that I just like, as I was speaking to people, I was just like, I don’t know what I’m saying. I kind of get what you’re hearing. It’s like through a haze. But then I just felt like afterwards, I’m like, that is the Lord’s kindness because I am prone to care very much and be anxious about how I’m perceived and how I’m received. But I just had no space for it because of this thorn.

And I think, yeah, experiencing God’s grace and that experiencing God’s grace through people like our church. It’s just so humbling to have our church like praying for me. People I love praying for me, because it’s like a long term thing. It’s I could imagine in my mind it being like, well, she’s not getting better. So let’s not pray for her. But for them to still care after so many years and to show deep empathy and compassion in their concern for me. I’ve learned dependence upon the people of God in that way and also feel so much like I’ve been upheld by them. So anytime I speak anywhere, anytime I write anywhere and I’m asking for prayer, after the fact, I feel so deeply this, that that was from God and I was sustained by God’s grace in that way.

And I also think like, empathy, know, deep empathy for people who are in pain. A couple of months ago, my husband had surgery, emergency surgery for something and they prescribed him an opioid, so like a narcotic and I just remember like, you know, I was still at the hospital I was working on this kind of sharing I was gonna do at this at this event, and I was in pain, and I remember just like this fleeting thought of like I wonder what it would like if I took his meds and just wasn’t in pain for like a day, you know, and I think I never would have imagined―not that I would have done it―but I never would have imagined that one day I would be fantasizing about that, right, and I think there’s just this empathy that God has built then in me of like what it can drive you to when you are in pain as I minister to people and I think speak to people who are in pain.

But also, I think lastly―sorry I know this is a long answer―but I think just seeing the beauty of like Jesus I remember years ago, a sister in Christ who’s a missionary in the Middle East now, and she’s had just so many issues in terms of like physically just throughout her life. And she was telling me about how, you know, think I really understand. I’m really so much more grateful that Jesus suffered physically for me. And I kind of like understood it in my mind when she said it, I kind of like logged it and I was like, oh yeah, you know, I get it. I’m not, I didn’t say I get it, but I was like, oh yeah, that’s, you know, that’s great that God is doing that in you.

But I distinctly remember serving one Sunday. I also serve on the worship team. After a morning of where pain was bad, and then I kind of was short with my kids because of my pain. And then during our just call to repentance, I don’t even remember what it was. But just repenting from my attitude and the way that I was justifying the way that I treated my kids because I was in pain that I think it just hit me like, wow, like Jesus, like how you suffered and in all that you did not sin, right? And just being able, did I know that before? Like yes, right? But feeling like how amazing it is that that was the case. Like how did Jesus, like even on that cross, you know, even in that physical suffering, that you were ministering and that you forgave, like just how incredible Christ is.

And so I think those are things that I’m still learning, still learning every day. I still push against the limits that God’s constrained me with and got stuck the other day on the way up the stairs because I was like, I can bring up this sofa or this chair. It was on my back. I got stuck and I had to call my husband. It was very humbling. I was like, Jeff! He’s like, what were you doing? And I was like, I thought I could do it. And there are just moments where I am just do feel like if I, you know, like if I were stronger, if I weren’t this and I could do all of this, but it is like a struggle, but it is a constant reminder of like, yeah, like there is such grace and kindness that God gives in the thorns, but also power and strength. Yeah.

Will Chang

Faith, thanks for sharing that so, so vulnerably and authentically. I think that it could probably just be a whole other podcast to kind of explore that, but I think you’re sort of a living testimony to what the Bible says that when suffering comes, it usually either hardens people or softens people and sort of reveals where your faith and your trust really is. And clearly it softened you as you shared and shows that your faith is fully and more grounded in the gospel of Jesus and what he’s done for us, and that’s not easy to come by these days, and so I feel really encouraged by what you shared and also just very empathetic towards that as well. Yeah, I think there’s much more to talk about that.

And, but maybe we could, as our time’s coming to a close on that note, certainly we could continue to pray for that, for our listeners to pray for you and Jeff and your family for that, your ministry and your leadership. And are there other prayer requests that you’d like to share with our viewers and listeners and myself? And projects are coming up. I think you mentioned maybe speaking engagements or everything, anything in the family or church that we could pray for you about.

Faith Chang

Yeah, always. I will try to keep it short. I think personally, in terms of projects, if you could pray for, I am starting a second book. Recently signed a contract with my publisher for that. So if you just pray that what I would write would be helpful for God’s people and for the church.

And yeah, if you could also pray for our church, pray for my husband and I as we serve. You know, I’m sure people who are listening know that all that that might entail, whatever you imagine would be the joys and hardships, probably not too far off. So prayers for faithfulness. Then you can pray for my husband. He’s gonna go on his sabbatical. We’re planning for one next summer for many reasons.

Will Chang

So good.

Faith Chang

Hasn’t been able to take one until now. So, pray for that planning and what we’re hoping to do then.

Will Chang

Okay, great. Can I ask, what is the name of your church?

Faith Chang

Grace Christian Church of Staten Island. GCC.

Will Chang

Yeah, true. True East Coast or New Yorker, which is great. Are you able to share a little bit about what your upcoming book will be about?

Faith Chang

Yeah, so the idea is to explore some of those promises that God has made of that, you actually touched upon it, of as we die and as we live and so what it means to live the cruciform life as we especially particularly as we serve the Lord, whether in ministry positions officially or just living lives where we’re pouring out to people I think hoping to encourage those who are in the trenches to look to the resurrection life, not just in the future, but the promises of experiencing that even now. Yeah.

Will Chang

That’s awesome. I think it’s going to be, like your first book, a really big blessing to people, leaders, and the kingdom overall. So I think we’re going to look forward to that and we’ll definitely keep that in prayer as well as your church.

So, Faith, I think that’s the end of our time, but it was really helpful and insightful. I want to thank you for sharing your life and your insights through your life experiences and the giftedness that God has given you. We’re certainly excited for what the Lord will do in and through you. And so thank you for your time and talking to us and blessing our listeners and our readers.

So, and for our listeners and viewers, if you want to explore more opportunities for leadership, please check out our website at solanetwork.org and please hit that like button on our podcast and our YouTube and much more content to come. But Faith, thanks again so much and nice seeing you again.

Faith Chang

Thanks Will.

Will Chang

Yep, see you later.