SLP Episode 1: “Should Churches Embrace Their Asian American Identity?”

Steve Chang
 Hi. Welcome to the SOLA Leaders Podcast, where we amplify the voices of leaders who are shaping a gospel future for the emerging generation of Asian Americans and beyond. I’m Steve Chang, and I’m with three fantastic leaders. I consider them some of the sharpest leaders out there, doing some great work.

And this came about because of a conversation we were having at one of our cohort meeting where Peter Lim was guiding us about how our Asian Americanness should inform our discipleship. It was a great, productive conversation and it got us into thinking whether our churches should embrace our Asian American identity or at least lean into it in some respect.

And I’m so glad that the three of you were sharing your thoughts and that’s what I want to talk about today because I think it’s a very important a question regardless of how you end up. Just to be aware of the issue. And so I’m gonna ask you to introduce yourselves, who you are, your, your, the, your context, the history of your church a little bit, and we’ll go in this order.

Peter, Jason, and Greg. Peter, you first. 

Peter Lim
Thanks, Pastor Steve. Hi everyone. My name is Peter Lim. I am out here in Atlanta, Georgia. Been out here for 20 years, by the way of Southern California. I grew up there, went to college out there. I’ve been out here since 2005. Back in 2012, uh, we planted a church that we call here Four Points Church of Atlanta, and it is.

Truly, we are unapologetically in an Asian American church. We’re not exclusively for Asian American people, but we are unapologetic about the fact that we are Asian. Asian American community, we’ll probably talk a little bit more about this, but, pastor Steve was sharing, asking us a little bit of the context.

Right. Well, here in Atlanta, unlike other parts of the nation, especially in Southern California, we are acutely aware of the fact that we’re still, a minority out here. And I think that has a big factor in terms of, why we identify. As an Asian American community. As an Asian American church.

So we’ll talk hopefully more about that, but that’s just a brief introduction about who I am and what ministry I lead out here. 

Steve Chang
And, and Peter, to clarify, uh, four Points identifies itself as an Asian American church, and you do that. How do you that do that on your tagline website? 

Peter Lim
Yeah, it’s, it’s in our, name. It’s in our web website. We talk about it in our community, in our churches, in our, uh, newcomers classes and our membership classes. It’s woven really into the, the fabric and the DNA of the church and how we communicate about who we are. 

Steve Chang
Okay. Thank you, Jason. Yeah. 

Jason Min
Hey everyone, my name is Jason Min. I pastor a church in downtown Los Angeles called Citizens. I’ve been a lead pastor here for, um, going on six years now. And, um, yeah, we’re also a church that is predominantly Asian American, um, is pretty young in our demographics, I’d say. Um. The median age is probably somewhere between 28 and 32. A lot of young families, um, married couples, but also college students, post grads, single working professionals.

As well. And so, um, maybe we’re not as explicit, um, as Peter is about the fact that we’re an Asian American church, but we’re pretty unabashedly Asian American when it comes to the way we talk about our church, the way I introduce our church, the way people identify us as a church, um, a lot of times. We are a church that comes up if someone moves to LA and is looking for an Asian American community.

And so, I’d say it’s more implicit, um, for us. Um, but it’s definitely there and it’s a huge part of our identity. 

Steve Chang
Okay. Thank you Greg. Yeah, so, um, 

Greg Mah
I’m Greg. I, lead South Bay Community Church in Torrance, California. Um, we are. Probably in a state where we’re wrestling with our identity, um, a bit and starting to get a grasp of who we really are.

But church was founded in 1992, a little over 30 years ago by Gary Shihohama here in Torrance. Um, and we’re specifically,  in the north part of Torrance. Our, our first location was actually in Gardena, and so it was very much a Japanese American, Japanese Hawaiian community. Um, and, and that very much was Pastor Gary’s heart. I think he had a heart for the Asians in the South Bay. and so he started the church here, even though he wasn’t from here. As the years went on though, when I joined in 2012, I think I walked into a church that was beginning to really diversify. Um, some, um. You know, other churches, there’s kind of a ma mass exodus and it wasn’t an Asian American church and I think they landed at South Bay.

And I think that kind of kickstarted a momentum of, more of a multi-ethnic like makeup of the church. And I think the church. I think we really loved what we were seeing, um, that now this was a church that anybody could come to. Um, and I think we tried to ride that train. I think especially in the two thousands.

There’s a lot of celebrating diversity and being multi-ethnic, multicultural. Uh, and I think we saw a lot of churches doing that and I think we are trying to, very hard to present ourselves that way on our social media website. Uh, but. Post COVID, we’ve kind of seen an influx of Asian Americans and now, I mean, I would say we’re probably 80 20 or 85, 15% Asian American, and I think we’re starting to lean into who we are and just embrace who we are.

And so that’s where we’re at today. 

Steve Chang
Okay, okay. And the demographically, Peter and Jason, is that about where you guys are at in terms of percentage? 

Peter Lim
We’re, we’re probably similar. We probably have more Asian Americans. 

We’re probably closer to 95% Asian American. Okay. Uh, and of that. Within our Asian American community, we have about 50% who are of Korean American descent, and about 35% who are of Chinese Taiwanese descent.

And, uh, the rest, uh, a mixture of Southeast Asians, um, and Filipinos. And, uh, uh, yeah, so just a, a variety of, different type of, Asian demographics. Um, but as a whole, Asian Americans probably make up about 95% of our community. Okay. 

Steve Chang
How about you, Jason? 

Jason Min
Yeah, I think that’s similar to us. Um, we haven’t done a formal census or anything, but I think just eye test. I think it would be very similar to for us. About nine outta 10 or Yeah. Yeah. Or so. 

Steve Chang
Okay. Okay, great. Going back to Peter, you say that four points. Explicitly identifies itself as an Asian American church on your taglines and your website. And I remember seeing that and I was surprised. And, I’ve had conversation with you aside from what you just said, that in Atlanta, unlike Southern California, where Asian Americans are truly a minority, trying to figure out where they belong. Outside of that, what led you to plant a church and, and. It wasn’t something that evolved, like from the beginning. You said this is going to be a Asian American, congregation. Yeah. Can you talk about that? 

Peter Lim
Yeah. AB absolutely. Yeah I, I don’t want to take up all the air time here, but it actually kinda goes back all the way to when I was pastoring in Southern California.

I was , part of a multi-ethnic, quote unquote, multi-ethnic church staff, and we’re trying to do a multi-ethnic church, but I literally remember on my drive. In the morning, on that particular Sunday, going from the 55 to the five over the, over the, the, the, the interchange there. Kind of having this moment where I was like, you know, I think there’s a reason why God made me Asian, as a Korean American, that, that that’s gotta matter.

That that can’t just be incidental or, or something that, is just kind of outlier actually has to matter. And I think that began the for me, kind of the journey into, uh, diving deeper into what it means to be an Asian American Christian in terms of my identity, uh, prior to that, I think for perhaps like others or, or many that are out there.

Not in generalizing a little bit here, but unintentionally I think what I was doing was, uh, uh, being dismissive of my Asian Americanness, uh, trying to, uh, not embrace it. Maybe I thought of it as something that was, uh. You know, less than secondary, uh, and, and always looking toward more the, the white, uh, majority, uh, uh, evangelical theologians and pastors and community. And so, I think inadvertently what I had done was kind of maybe. Put that part of me to the side or just didn’t embrace it or did not even give it its proper weight. All that being said, during that journey, through that journey, uh, God led us out here to Atlanta, and here in Atlanta, as I mentioned, um, it’s, it hits you kind of upside the head even, you know, now after being here for 20 years, but especially 20 years ago, it really hit you upside the head, being one of the very few Asian Americans here in the city at that time and. You’re confronted with the fact that, hey, I’m different. I’m, I’m an ethnic minority here and especially here in the south in Atlanta, racial tensions and still is it, it’s pretty significant. But oftentimes whatever racial dialogues and discussions take place, it’s always about the black and the whites.

It’s very binary and understandably historically here, it makes total sense and, but in so doing. The Asian American community, even within the Christian context, started to kind of get lost. And, and we, we kind of just got, you know, we, our views or our, our needs were kind of not really talked about and expressed.

And so, part of that journey for me was then to say, Hey, you know what? I think it’s important for us to start a church and start a community that really embraces. Who we are, including our Asian American identity. And that part actually goes all the way back to, biblical theology, right? It, it’s really embracing Genesis 1 27 where, if God created us in his image that has to include all of who I am, including my hair, my eyes, my skin color, all of that, my heritage, my culture. And then also embracing that with, uh, coupling that with Psalm 1 39, where, uh, if he created us in his, in, in Inmost being, um. Who we are, reflects the image of God. And I think here in Atlanta in particular, um, people I think were feeling perhaps lost or, or perhaps feeling like, their needs were not being addressed or talked about. So, for all those reasons, I felt it was really, really important for us from the very beginning when we started this church, uh, to, to lean into the fact that we are fully image bearers of God and all of who we are, including our Asian heritage and roots and culture phenotype and, and, and all the different ways in which we embrace that or, or demonstrate that, uh, reflects the fullness of who we are as image bearers. And so for those reasons, we really lean into the fact that, uh, we are going to start from day one as an Asian American church. 

Steve Chang
Okay. I I’m gonna go back to that, um, a little bit later on, but I wanna ask if you, when you’re in LA pastoring, were subconsciously dismissive of your Asian Americanness. And almost glamorizing, multiethnic or majority culture ministries. And it took you a while to come to that realization. Do you think that there are many, many other leaders who are still stuck in that they’re in a way self-loathing or ashamed of their minority status and trying to so hard to gain approval from the majority culture?

Peter Lim
It might sound a bit harsh, but again, not knowing who these people may be, but I definitely do think that, subconsciously or perhaps even unconsciously, I think, some of that does take place. I, I do think that there is a perhaps a a, an internalization of looking at our Asian history. Asian roots, and again, I can speak specifically as a Korean American, but looking at the Korean American church, Korean American experience, that’s somehow second class.

It, it really isn’t a. Uh, theologically sound, uh, it’s just culturally biased and what have you. And as a result, then, uh, being taught and, and studying in, in, you know, western evangelical seminaries, then I gravitated toward that, Hey, this is actually the right way. This is the correct way. This is the true, uh, Jesus, true God.

And I think what that then does is oftentimes it creates this, uh, binary of. Western way is good and the Asian way, uh, is bad. Uh, the Western way is, is theologically sound and the, the Eastern way. The Asian way is theologically, uh, clouded in culture or biased in culture, right? And so when that happens, then I found myself internalizing that and I found myself, uh, seeking and looking, to only white theologians.

White pastors. And, inadvertently I think I then. During, earlier on in my journey, uh, really, uh, glamorized and, and look to the white church and white leadership and white evangelical, uh, models as, as like the way and everything else as kind of secondary. 

Steve Chang
Yeah. That’s great. Thank you so much Jason. Uh, I remember having conversations with you, on many different contexts in which you talked about you having to come to more of an acceptance and realization of Citizens Asian, Americanness, uh, yeah. Take us through your journey. 

Jason Min
Yeah, I mean, um, Peter’s experience resonates with me a lot. For me it’s more of a recent, I think, realization, and I’ve been on this journey for a while. Um, if you had asked me five years ago, seven years ago. 10 years ago, you know, the kind of church that I, if I, if I could pastor a church, the kind of church I would wanna pastor at, I would never have said an Asian Amer, predominantly Asian American church.

Because again, I grew up in a time when like the Asian church was jv, you know, uh, the white church, white mega church was varsity. And that was not just in ministry. You know, my, my background is in music. I have a younger brother who’s an actor, and in, I would say in both of our experiences and in both of those fields, we grew up in a time where the goal was to get approval from, from the white man.

You know, it was like to be considered a legitimate actor, to be considered a legitimate musician. You couldn’t just be playing for Asian Americans. You had to be playing for white people. And if you were like in a movie or if you were. Playing a show and there were white people in the audience, you had made it.

And I think that exact, um, mindset, you know, um, carried right over into ministry. And that’s kind of what I believed. And I think because of that, the goal was always multiethnic. And, and it wasn’t because, you know, like, I wish I could say that desire was. You know, uh, like a, in order to be a more biblical model of church? No, like for me it wasn’t, you know, it was just because there was a self-hatred of my own culture, uh, dismissiveness that Peter mentioned. Um, and I realized very early on, um, in pastoring citizens that in doing that I was doing our congregation a huge disservice because I wasn’t seeing them. Our congregation was Asian American, and how you, how can you pastor a church that you don’t see?

And how, how can you pastor a church when you don’t even see yourself? You know? And so that was impacting everything, a very kind of formative moment. Like an aha moment for me was anytime I brought white friends, black friends, Latino friends to our church, I would always apologize and I would give them a hundred disclaimers, um, and say, Hey, don’t be alarmed when you get there. You’re gonna see a whole bunch of Asian people. Um, as though I had to apologize for our church’s asianness, um, and I realized when they would invite me to their churches, they never apologized. You know, you know, they never said, get ready, you’re gonna see a lot of black people, or, you know. You’re gonna, you’re just gonna see a lot of white people.

No. That, like, for them it was their reality, but for me, my cultural identity was something I had to apologize for. And that’s where I knew, huh, there’s something, there’s something wrong here. And if it is absolutely impacting the way I’m pastoring our community. And so, um, it’s, you know, thankfully I’ve had great mentors, um, along the way who’ve really helped me, um, kind of process my own self-hatred, um, become, start to embrace my own cultural identity. And as I have done that, I think it’s changed the way that I’ve pastored our church. And my, my hope is that through that. In my own journey, like I’ve brought our entire community on that, on that journey as well ’cause I know I’m not the only one who feels that way. And kind of like, um, I know the experience was similar to Peter’s, where early on it was very interesting. There were a lot of people who said, ah, I, I love you Jason, but I don’t think I can go to citizens because it’s just too Asian for me. I’m gonna go look for a more multi-ethnic context, and usually what that meant, not all the time, but usually what that meant was white lead pastor with compositional diversity in their congregation. And then the Atlanta spa shootings happened and it was crazy. Um, how many Asian Americans came back to citizens saying I thought they saw me because, you know, they love Korean barbecue and K-Pop and KDRs, but when this horrible tragedy that impacted our community happened, like I, I heard nothing, no mention of it from the pulpit. No mention of it. Like it was, it was like we were completely unseen and so we, we got a whole bunch of folks during that time who said, you know, I’m Actually just tired of explaining my culture and explaining to my pastors that there’s this huge thing that’s impacting our community. And so, um, we’re actually now looking for an Asian American church. And I would say that was a, that was a hinge point where now. People say they come to citizens specifically because they’re looking for an Asian American church in la and that even for me to hear that was a huge shift and that just only reaffirmed kind of my own journey that I’ve been on.

Steve Chang
So Jason, you’re saying that some of the people who said, oh, we’re gonna look for a, a more diverse church. Some of those people were actually Asian Americans. 

Jason Min
Oh yeah. They were, they were most, they were all Asian Americans actually, because I think they had the same kind of preconceived notions about church that I did that, you know, this is almost like, like to be at this church would be like, um, participating in your college student film, you know, but like, we wanna go to the big leagues and we wanna, you know, be true adults. And that meant, you know, going to a multi-ethnic. You know, context. 

Steve Chang
Yeah. You know, it, it’s funny, but you’re not the first one who mentioned the Atlanta spa shooting as a turning point. Mm-hmm. Uh, where Asian Americans in their congregations would complain about the lack of diversity. But after that they felt like, okay, it is at this moment, we felt seen and heard.

Mm-hmm. And so, Hey, thank you so much, Greg. Uh, and. I, I, I wanna just make a disclaimer. I’ve, I’ve, recommended, people to four points. Bunch of our people, uh, especially their kids, are at Citizens and at my wife and I are attending. So, uh, Greg is my pastor. Now. Greg, tell us about your journey or your current journey into this particular question.

Greg Mah
Yeah. So it is, it is actually really interesting to hear Peter and, and Jason’s kind of a story and background. I, I feel like I’m the opposite. Uh, well, same but different. So, so I grew up in a, a Chinese heritage church, um, Chinese, um, speaking. And so I was part of the English Ministry and we were in a affluent community, um, up on a hill and you know, it was it was very challenging ’cause we’re, everybody, every church wants to be about evangelism and discipleship. Um, it was in our mission statement. We would preach it, um, as we would preach, um, expository sermons, like everything kept coming back to like, we gotta be missional, we gotta, we gotta preach, gospel, make disciples.

And so the challenge was we would try to, um, have all these like community outreaches, all these events to plan on bringing people in, but. Since our demographic was, young adult, Chinese, well-educated, affluent, you know, community. We found it was incredibly hard to actually carry out the mission where, you know, we’re in the workspace now or we’re on college campuses, and unless our friends were young, adult Chinese American educated and affluent, like they would come, but they would never stay like they would. They just would not say for the very same reasons, this, this is not us, right? And so. Um, our church never grew. It was a big deal if a person came and decided to, to follow Jesus, you know, in, in our context. And so it was frustrating. It was very frustrating to continually, uh, preach this, try to, uh, mobilize the church to be, uh, missional, but we couldn’t practically, I, everyone had the heart, but we couldn’t practically, um, do it well.

So when I. Ended up at, um, south Bay Community Church in 2012. Like I have to tell you, like it was the most refreshing, um, breath of air, like coming here and looking around. And it was still, at that time it was probably 80, 80, 20, 80% Asian American. But that 20% to me was like, like eye-opening. And I felt like for the first time I could actually go anywhere. And it wasn’t even just, um, ethnically or racially, it, it was also like, um, socioeconomically, it was generationally felt like I could go to the Redondo Beach Pier and invite a homeless guy, um, to our church. Or I could go to the college campus, invite a college student to our church. I could go to the market.

It like all of a sudden I could actually ask anybody to come and follow Jesus with us at our church. And that was to me. Man, this is what it looks like. This is what it looks like to be, um, uh, missional and excited about helping people find and follow Jesus, which is in the mission statement of our church.

So, so for me that, that’s why I, I think for the, those 10 years from 2012 up to maybe a couple years ago, just really trying to build upon that and leverage that. Um, but then now in a new season where. I, I, I, it was you Pastor Steve who asked me about a year and a half ago, would you consider South Bay Community Church an Asian American church? And I think that’s the first time I said it out loud. Yeah, I think we are. And then from then on, really starting to think about what, what does that mean for us and how do we not be ashamed of that? And how do we actually embrace that and even now leverage that. 

Steve Chang
So. And Greg, I mean, every Sunday we look around and I see the, the rich diversity of the congregation.

And so, uh, south Bay is doing an amazing job there. And, and I, you know, you’ve heard me, say to you that South Bay not only is, uh, reaching the Asian Americans in your CI in the city of Torrance, but in the region, uh, they’re coming from afar, but you’ve also become. One of the leading churches just period in the Torrance area.

So you have a responsibility mm-hmm. Uh, to, to reach a broader, um, group. And so it’s a, it’s a unique kind of a burden that you also, are holding. So thank you so much for that. Let me transition into, ’cause you guys are bringing up some interesting points in that when you’re looking at someone and you, we need to be able to look at them whole, like who they are. You, you can’t treat someone in their seventies like they’re in their twenties. Uh, there’s a different set of challenges and struggles and, and longings that they have. And you can’t look at a person who is a minority and pretend like that’s not an identity issue that they wrestle with or, or someone who’s a child of an immigrant, et cetera.

So I think Peter, when you led the discussion in our cohort, you talked about discipleship, that our Asian Americanness or the Asian Americanness of our people, um, have to impact how we discipled. Okay. So, uh, a lot of what we’re talking about today so far has been discipleship. And in some way missions too, because in the Atlanta area there are these people who are longing for a community like Four Points.

Now, um, I I, if this is all about discipleship and mission, what happens? For example, like what Greg is pointing out, that if the Asian Americanness or the focus or leaning into the Asian Americanness can get in the way of discipleship and mission. To the non-Asian Americans, so those who can’t identify with that.

Um, yeah, so I’ll let Peter answer and then, and Jason and, and Greg, if you wanna chime into that. 

Peter Lim
Yeah, that’s a, that’s a, a good question and it’s actually a very important, relevant question. I think every church like ours are gonna have to grapple with and, and work through. Um, but I, I’m gonna go back to what Jason had expressed when, uh, he had shared just recent, uh, just a moment ago when he said that when he invites his non-Asian friends to his church, he’s giving a thousand disclosures. Right? But yet, when. He’s invited to their churches, whether they’re white or black, no disclosure is given. And I think that that says something, um, in the sense that, um, I think there is. A posture of learning that can take place in our context when people who are not of Asian American, descent, who come to our community.

So, as I said in our church context, it’s not large, but we have about 5%, some whites, uh, some blacks, some uh, Latinos, uh, but when they come, most of them have some type of Asian. American connection. They’re married to somebody or they adopted a child, but some don’t. Um, but they know it’s interesting. They know full well that they’re coming to an Asian American church and uh, their posture has been actually quite. Quite impressive where they’re here to learn, they’re here to, to experience something different. Uh, sometimes they will challenge me and say to me, if I would say something for the pulpit, they would say to me, Hey, that’s not just an Asian thing. And I would acknowledge that it’s not just an Asian American thing. But what I would then clarify is that, uh uh. It’s in that context, or maybe perhaps to a greater degree. It’s not just experienced by Asian Americans alone, but maybe to a different, uh, level or to a greater degree or, or nuanced way. And so, so those are some of the conversations that we have.

But I think they, uh, have a posture of learning when they do come to our community. ’cause it’s pretty evident as you walk in the door, it’s like 95% Asian American. Uh, and so I don’t. Think there needs to be an apology, uh, that’s made to being an Asian American church. If anything, going back to the comment about what’s our mission or who, who is our mission.

Um, and for us, the community is not necessarily a local geographic community that’s just a five square mile, but it’s the metro Atlanta area in our community, we’re identifying our, our people that we are, are. Trying to disciple and empower are the Asian American community here in the entirety of the Metro ladder area.

And as a result, one of the things I think many Asian Americans struggle with, whether they acknowledge this or not, is, um, doubt, self-doubt, self hatred, self dismissiveness, what have you, and. For me, that’s really, really sad because again, if we don’t embrace our fullness as image errors of God, I don’t know if we can actually live our life to the fullest as follows of Christ.

And so I think as part of our call to discipleship is to help people fully embrace who they are as image bearers of God, which includes our history, our heritage, our ethnicity. And so for us it really is a matter of discipleship. It is really helping people see themselves. Uh, when they look in the mirror as, Hey, I’m fully an image bearer of God, just like my white brothers and sisters, my black brothers and sisters, my Latino brothers and sisters, uh, that we all uniquely embrace the fullness of God. Obviously collectively, we, we then truly embrace the fullness of God, but individually, there’s nothing wrong with it. There’s nothing missing, there’s nothing, uh, uh, lacking in terms of who we are. And I think that is one of the reasons why, uh, we find it to be incredibly important here. Um, and if I could just add one more thing to what Jason had said earlier as well, but in our, in our context, the small shootings happen just a couple miles from where we are. Literally from where I’m standing, I think it’s about five miles away. One of the locations. And so, um, for us it was not necessarily a, a, a pivot point, but it was an affirmation point that, hey, this is the reason why we are here. This is the reason why, uh, God had called us to be an, an, an unapologetically Asian American church because, uh, many people, uh, were attending, a lot of people were attending, you know, white majority church cultures or, or churches, excuse me.

And a year earlier when. Ah, Maud Arbery, uh, just, here in Georgia, along with George Floyd, when they were killed, uh, the white churches at least tried. They stumbled, they fumbled, but they tried. They at least tried to address it. Uh, but when the spa shootings happened, uh, none of the churches talked about it, perhaps out of they didn’t know how, or, they just felt like maybe it wasn’t their place. And then a lot of the people who are attending the immigrant churches, uh, Asian-American churches, whether, uh, they’re a Korean immigrant or a Chinese immigrant, they weren’t talking about it because it was seen to be shameful because of the, the, the work cult context in which these things were ta uh, taking place.

So the Asian-Americans just felt invisible. And, uh, that’s when, uh, they really saw it within themselves at this is part of who they are. This is part of their identity. This is part of their Christian faith. And so, uh, that really was an affirmation for us, that that’s the reason why God had placed us here to start an Asian American community to really help people embrace their identity and their fullness as managers of God. So it, for us, it’s all intertwined within even our missionary discipleship. 

Steve Chang
Thank you Jason. A bunch of years ago during the first AALC, I think we had a little lunch upstairs with some older and younger leaders, and I think Aaron Chung from Exilic. And you talked about how, especially the younger people want their pastor to be authentic about their race, uh, ethnic identity.

And that even the non-Asians wanted that. Mm-hmm. Um, can you, yeah. Um, I, I, I’m not sure if I’m quoting you or Aaron properly. I think one of you said it, if not both of you. Um, can you talk about that a little bit? And also, uh, you shared something about the filming of BEEF and what the producers of A24, said to you.

Jason Min
Yeah, yeah. Um, couple things I’ll say is. Yeah, pastoring a very young church. Um, I think, um, what, what Aaron said is, is I find that to be even more true today than it was when, you know, a few years ago, where I’m seeing that what Gen Z are really looking for when they, what they’re looking for in preaching, what they’re looking for in their leaders and pastors is authenticity because they are living in what feels like a, uh, like, it, it, it feels like, uh, the Twilight Zone. You know, like they don’t know what’s real. It’s the age of misinformation, disinformation, you know, um, everything is curated. You know, they’re, they’re growing up in the digital age, so I think there is this hunger and craving for something real and something authentic.

And, you know, I think. Um, to kind of connect it to what, you know, um, yeah, like I, when we were, when we were filming BEEF, especially that all the Korean church scenes, it was very interesting because they wanted to get everything from the color of the box that the donuts were in to the sport that everyone, sports, that people were playing, the way people talked, how they dressed. They wanted it to be as accurate as possible. Like they, they weren’t gonna generalize and they weren’t gonna skimp on any detail. And I remember looking at that and asking the question, man, like, don’t you think that the more kind of specific you get, the more niche this gets and the more it alienates kind of other cultures and other races. And something that people at A24 said was, you know, there is authenticity and specificity. The idea was that the more specific you get, like not everyone will connect with the Korean second generation, Korean American church experience, but everyone connects to authenticity and they know when they’re watching something that is real.

There’s just something intangible that is conveyed. When you are trying to capture like a real life experience. And I think that’s so true even today, and so like with Gen Z, it’s very important you know, that I am comfortable with who I am because you know so much of, I think the power of the pulpit and I think the kind of preaching that resonates, um, for young people today is preaching that comes from an authentic place where you’re actually sharing these were my, these were my experiences, my real experiences. This isn’t just an illustration. I ripped off of Tim Keller. This was my life, you know? And, um, and this impacts my faith, you know, and not, maybe not everyone in our congregation can connect with that, but they can connect with a pastor who is at least doing his best to, to express an authentic experience in his life. And so, you know, like, you know, the way that I, I do it at Citizens is while I will never assume that everyone has the same experience as me, so I won’t say in a sermon, something like All of us had parents who were X, Y, and Z. I’ll never say that. What I might say is for myself being a second generation Korean American with immigrant parents, this was my experience. And so just that one phrase alone, I think pulls in people who, for whom that experience wasn’t theirs. For them to be able to learn like, oh, this is what, maybe this is what the experience was like for someone like Jason and for others in our congregation, for whom this experience was very relatable like immediately they feel drawn into that, to that illustration. And so I think there is a way that you can be authentic without being exclusive or alienating. 

Steve Chang
Okay. Thank you so much. Yeah, that, that’s really helpful. Um, so. Jason, what you’re saying is leaning into our Asian Americanness as we pastor, doesn’t mean trying to generalize for the audience. In fact, that’s, that’s may not be helpful, but it means being authentic and trans and, and yeah, authentic to who I am and my experience, and that authenticity will communicate to those who can relate and even those who cannot because they sense that you’re being authentic. But when we’re trying. As we had been decades ago and we were trying to be so, uh, accepted, we might have hidden some of those things. And not talked about it. And in a way we are being inauthentic. Mm-hmm. And now the younger people are starting to pick up on that and they don’t want that. 

Greg Mah
Can I say that’s a great thing about that? Sure. Um. You know, actually Jason, ever since you shared that about just being specific and, and actually being okay with that. And I, I, I, I’ve actually applied that to my preaching and, um, there’s just a freedom, you know, one of the blessings in, embracing our Asian American identity in my own as, as an Asian American pastor, there’s a freedom in it. Like, like you just said, pastor Steve, like I don’t have to. Try and work hard to be someone I’m not, to reach someone who’s not like me right. Just an example, recently I was, um, speaking at a retreat in Seattle and there’s four messages, right? You give four messages. But by far the, number one thing that people, um, came back to me with just comments or feedback, what really resonated with them. I shared a story about, um. My grandma.

And so my grandma comes from a village, um, in China called Toisan, and nobody knows what that is, right? Not a lot of people, um, know where Toan is, but, um, I, I, I, I just shared with them, you know, they’re not gonna know what this is, but I told ’em like out of 30 years that I knew her, I loved her. We visited her twice a year in San Francisco, Chinatown as a family, we’d go visit them. Spend time with her at the park, she’d cook for us. Loved her so much. And when she passed away when I was 30 years old, I share that at our funeral. My biggest regret, um, in regards to my relationship with her and my biggest regret is outta 30 years. I never had one conversation with my grandma. I never had one actual conversation. And the reason was because she only spoke, spoke Toisan and I, I’m from Torrance, you know, and I only speak English. I don’t even speak. Cantonese, which my family is, uh, our dialect is Cantonese. And so we could only, it was nonverbal communication for 30 years. Um, and I just, you know, the point of the message was, in heaven, every tribe telling a nation will be there and we’ll be speaking a heavenly language and we have eternity to, um, just fellowship together in the presence of Jesus.

But, but when I shared that, um. I can’t tell you how many people resonated with that. You know, first of all, I, I didn’t even realize that there’s a whole community of people from Toisan in Seattle. Uh, that’s what I found out. A lot of people are like, I’m Toisan. Um, but even those who weren’t. Resonated with, I have a grandparent too, who is, uh, an immigrant or first gen and I speak English, and there’s that, that whole break in communication and, and it just resonated. And so I found that it’s true, like when, when I had the freedom just to be me, um, even if they can’t perfectly relate, it resonates, you know? And so. Just wanted to say that there’s, there’s a blessing in just being who I am and letting people see that. 

Steve Chang
Thank you. Yeah. And, um, you know, and if we are not ashamed of how God has created us, our heritage, et cetera, that not only may bring clarity to our Asian American congregants, but the, the others as well, the Hispanics and the blacks and even the whites, et cetera, like, oh, it’s okay to accept who I am. Uh, and, um, you know, maybe I had a parent who, uh, was, you know, worked hard in the Dust Bowl, uh, uh, on the Great Depression, and I, I’ll be able to talk about that now, um, and, and the such, so, yeah. That’s great. One last quick question. Okay. Yeah. Our time’s almost up. And I’ll, I’ll let Greg go and then Jason and Peter, when you think about your kids’ generation and as they grew up in the church, do you think they will care more or less about this question about embracing their ethnic identity and, and, um, in their spiritual lives? So Greg, Jason and Peter.

Greg Mah
I’m gonna guess that they’ll probably care less, you know? And, and the reason I, um, say that as I was reflecting upon our, our church, um, many of the Japanese Americans and Japanese Hawaiians in our church, they’re like third, fourth generation. Um, so their parents were American born and they all spoke English. Um, so English is the only language many of our Asian Americans speak here. So to them, I feel like, um, in, in a lot of ways they, a lot of the people in our church see themselves as American, um, yellow skin, but American, um, in culture ’cause uh, this is all they’ve known. And so it becomes less, unless a thing that they’re trying to hold onto. They’re, they’re, um, um, their ethnic heritage ’cause they don’t. They don’t know it as well as maybe our, our current generation knows it if we have, um, first generation parents or immigrant parents. So being that, um, most of the people now in our church are American born, um, I think the Americanness just becomes a little bit more blended and blurred. Um, so yeah, that’s kind of how, how I see it. 

Steve Chang
And I know one of the things I’m learning from South Bay is mm-hmm. Watching a, a, a congregation field, third, fourth generation, Japanese American, Asian Americans, and seeing how it’s and less connected to the immigrant generation. And seeing the small changes, subtle, that small changes. Jason, what about, what do you think? 

Jason Min
I think I have the same answer as Greg, but taking it from a slightly different angle where. I almost feel like if we do our job well then the hope is that our kids and their kids won’t necessarily have to ask these same questions that, um, you know, like they, I think like for us, we’re asking these questions because we’re like, we’re coming into this, our eyes have been opened and we’ve had to code switch our entire lives. We’ve experienced what invisibility felt like, and we’re now asked, like, it feels like we’re coming like out of the matrix for the first time. And the hope is that when our kids, uh, are, you know on future podcasts, they’re more talking about their Asian American identity, very fluidly they’re not, it’s, there’s no apology for it. They’re talking. They’re kind of talking about their spirituality in with a very comfortable relationship with who they are, who God has created them to be, um, and how they show up in the world. And so in some ways, my hope is that, um, current leaders and pastors would do, you know, do the work in such a way that, these same questions might not plague our kids and their kids.

Steve Chang
Great answer, Peter?

Peter Lim
I’m gonna take a slightly different take. Um, I think they are going to be more curious, but I think it’s gonna be, uh, context based. And so what I mean by that is, uh. Again, being here in Atlanta, when you are an ethnic minority, you are confronted with this again and again and again. And in our church we have fifth generation youth students, sixth generation college students, sixth generation Chinese American, uh, students who are now going to college and being the only Asian in their school or, uh, being in a city or in a context where they’re still. The few, uh, even though their great-great-great-great, great grandparents were here, uh, perhaps before maybe even some of the more, uh, majority culture descendants here, they’re still confronted with certain, certain. Bigoted comments or racial tensions and, and certain statements here. So perhaps I think maybe in Southern California, in the next generations, this may not necessarily be, something that is talked about or, or, or, desired or, or sought. But I think in other parts of the country where Asian Americans are not a large part of the demographic, unless we start to look more and more like the majority culture, we’re gonna be reminded over and over again that, Hey, you aren’t really from here, even though they’ve been here for six generations.

Hey, you speak English really well. Um, hey, uh, where are you from? Uh, these, you know, oftentimes innocuous questions, but. Unfortunately, uh, Daniel, d Lee at Fuller, he, he uses this phrase, death by a thousand paper cuts. Uh, when these types of microaggressions happen, uh, over the course of time, it, it, it hurts. It hurts a lot. It’s actually pretty gruesome if you actually think about that imagery. Uh, and so when you are experiencing these types of microaggressions over and over and over again, I think it will. Cause you, or, or lead you to search for your roots, your identity, and your heritage. And so I think in my geographic context, I think the next generation are still going to be talking about it right? Still gonna be thinking about it. And I think also, uh, just one final commentary on this is that though Asian Americans may not consciously think about these things. The fact that they’re attending our church betrays their conscience, their subconscious is thinking about these things. So the fact that you’re seeking an Asian American majority church context and community tells you implicitly there’s something there.

So consciously, even though you’re not thinking about it and talking about it implicitly, subconsciously, there’s something there that matters to you. And so that I think, testifies to, to me, that this is still very important. Piggybacking on now what Jason said, it is I think a greater responsibility for us as, as pastors and leaders of Asian American people to help them understand their Asian American identity in the context of what it means to be a child of God, right? And so, uh, that’s kind of how I see what the future may look like. 

Steve Chang
Thank you so much. What a, a great conversation we’ve had today. I, I only got through two out of the five questions that I, I’ve had and, I wanted to delve into so much more like, what are the, the blessings and the pitfalls? What are, how can we theologically, kind of think through these issue? What would we say the younger leaders were shorting? And as such, and maybe we’ll have another set of conversations. I, I really appreciate. All three of you, uh, just learning from all of you. And I think the different context really helps actually. Uh, to, and I, I agree with you, Peter. If you’re in Southern California, you’re Asian Americans in some pockets are majority culture. And I remember talking to a friend who grew up in Hawaii and said, it, it’s Asian American. It just is a different reality over there. And maybe in, in a place like Torrance is more like Hawaii, but in a place like Atlanta, much more a minority and having to wrestle with all of that but I’m glad that all three of our, you are not only leading your church as well, but leading this generation well, thank you so much. Hey, thank you for listening to this SOLA network Leaders podcast. I’m grateful for our guests today. I’m looking forward to more conversation with those who are shaping the generation with the gospel. Thank you. God bless.