SLP Episode 5: Justin Kim on Lessons from Korean, Multi-Ethnic, and Japanese American Churches

Sola Network

Welcome to the Sola Network Leaders Podcast, where we amplify the voices of pastors and ministry leaders shaping a gospel future for the emerging generation of Asian Americans and beyond. We hope you enjoy hearing different perspectives from various ministry leaders throughout the U.S.

Steve S. Chang 

Hi, I’m with Justin Kim, my good friend, a member of our SOLA council. We’ve known each other for, I don’t know, maybe 15 plus years. Justin’s one of the most faithful, kind, Barnabas-like pastors that I know. I’m so grateful to have him here. Justin, tell us a little bit about yourself to begin with, your family. And the ministry transitions that you’ve experienced last maybe 15, 20 plus years.

Justin Kim

Yeah, Steve, it’s good to see you. I’m grateful for this opportunity to be on this podcast. I grew up in the East Coast. My hometown is Fairfax, Virginia, and that’s where I grew up and came to know the Lord and then also got my calling. I received my calling into ministry right before I went off to college, so pretty early on, and it’s been a journey since.

I went to seminary out there and got ordained in the PCA and then met my wife, got married, and then we journeyed out to the West Coast to Seattle and didn’t know anybody out there really. But my wife and I felt like it was quite the adventure. I think our thought was like, let’s just go for it. And if it doesn’t work out, we were kind of young and maybe naive about it too.

We thought if it wasn’t going to work out, then we’ll just come back. That was kind of like our, let’s go for it attitude. And so we went out to a church in Seattle area, pastoring the English ministry of a pretty sizable Korean immigrant church and was there for about seven plus years. And then we got another calling to come down to Southern California to pastor the English congregation of another Korean immigrant church in Irvine, California.

And then that congregation by God’s grace and by the support, which is really rare, you know, at that time, the senior pastor of the church, Pastor Brian Kim, as well as the session, blessed us and empowered us to be our own church. But during that time, I also sensed a change was needed. And a lot of that was because I just wanted to spend more time with my family, my teenagers who are going through some challenges and just really want to spend more time with them.

I was also feeling some like misalignment with some aspects of our church context with the Korean church. But really the bigger reasons were family reasons. And so we made a life-changing decision to move out of that church, which we love very much. And we made the move to go back to Seattle and landed at a very white majority cultural church. It’s like, and we did that intentionally. We went to a church that was very different from any church that we’ve ever been a part of and looking for a role that was also very different. And so we went to a church called Doxa Church in Redmond, Washington. And so we were there for not even quite two years, maybe like 22 months total. And it was a wonderful experience.

It was hard at times for the family and I.  Overall, it was a wonderful experience. And then more recently, last year, we made the move back to Southern California. And I accepted a call to be the senior pastor here at Wintersburg Church in Santa Ana, which is a very historic 120-year-old Japanese immigrant church. That’s how it started. But now today, I think it’s becoming more more multi-Asian, and just celebrated my one year at the church. I not only survived, but I want to say I’m flourishing. I’m really grateful to be here.

Steve S. Chang

So to be clear, you went from Virginia, you were at a Korean immigrant church to probably the largest Korean immigrant church in the Pacific Northwest, and then to Southern California to one of the biggest Korean immigrant church in Southern California, and then back up to the Seattle area to serve at a church that was, how can I say it, one of the revitals, of Mark Driscoll’s church, would that be correct to say? And then you came back down to Southern California to pastor a Japanese heritage or historic Japanese American church that’s 120 plus years old, is that correct?

Justin Kim

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We celebrate 120 years last year, So yeah, to this year would be 121st. And 1904 is when the church started as a mission and reaching Japanese immigrants in the Wintersburg area in Huntington Beach. And so, and then in the 1960s, they moved out to our current location, which is on the border of Garden Grove and Santa Ana. And so, yeah, it’s a…

There aren’t many things that you can say that’s 120 years, right? It’s older than McDonald’s, think. It’s older than Coca-Cola, think, maybe. But it’s such a wonderful church. It’s gone through its highs and lows, and I’m learning more and more about the history of this marvelous church. It’s a great church. But they’ve also gone through some lean years and some tough years. And I came in in a season where the church was going through some difficulty. They had a hard time finding senior pastor for a period about nine years and within those nine years the church had experienced a lot of you know, just a lot of challenges and so one reason or another and so yeah, I felt calling to this church and a lot of my well-meaning friends were discouraging me at times to not go to this church. They wanted me because of love they wanted me to go to shepherd a healthy flock, not a flock that was very much broken. And some people might take issue to that word that this was a broken church, but I really think this church was not healthy in many respects. so, but yeah, I just feel like this is where my personality, my giftings, my experiences, and just, I just felt called, this was the church for us, for my family. And we’re just really thrilled and happy to be here.

Steve S. Chang

You know, it’s interesting because a lot of people would struggle to find a position even if they try. But for some reason, God’s been very gracious to you in that every step of the way, I know that you’ve been recruited. You weren’t sometimes even looking and like, DOCSA would recruit you. You went from Virginia, Korean immigrant church to, like I said, a Korean mega church. Pacific Northwest Korean megachurch, Southern California, the rebirth of formerly Mars Hill, and then a Japanese herder church. I’m sure there are challenges in every situation, but I’m sure there’s beauty in every situation too. What are some things that you’ve seen, let’s say, in the Korean church, in the multi-ethnic church, or the majority culture church, and now the historic Japanese heritage.

Justin Kim

Right. Yeah, yeah. With DOXA, I don’t know if they recruited me, just to be clear, I did hear about their need and I reached out to cold turkey to Church and it was just really connected with the Executive Pastor and it worked out so well and it was just a great fit and so just wanted to be clear about that. 

Steve S. Chang

You know, they love you because even after you left, inviting you back to celebrate for some reason. I don’t know.

Justin Kim

Yeah, Doxa Church was an amazing experience and I just Steve I wasn’t there very long but I really believe that I made lifelong friends with the many of the people there at that church and especially with their staff members and I’ve learned so much and I would everything I was hoping for in going to this new church was what I feel like I received and us being there for 22 months wasn’t really the plan. I actually thought maybe that that was it. Like we could be there for the long haul. And I think sometimes the Lord unexpectedly just throws a curve ball at us, right? And we were not expecting to leave so quickly. We had bought a house there too and was willing to, you know, be there long-term. But it became very clear that after some time, you know, the Lord was leading us out and, and, and so, and I would say from, but I’m very thankful for all my experiences, you know, with the Korean immigrant church, you know, when you’re looking, working with the traditional Korean immigrant church, what sticks out for me is like the things that are really positive. And for many years I had just to be really vulnerable, I had real big issues with the Korean immigrant church and at times had to go through counseling because of a lot of hurt that I received from the church. And like some of my maybe friends and colleagues, there were moments where I just wanted to leave the Korean immigrant church. But then I think the Lord began to mature my heart a little bit and see the beauty of the immigrant church and not be ashamed that I’m from that environment. 

I think about the strength of the immigrant church like prayer. think like I still think that like I don’t know how to pray like my mom and dad does, right? And missions, like I’ve never seen the church be mobilized for missions like the Korean immigrant church does. And maybe it’s their wartime mentality, many of them, but they have this sacrificial lifestyle, you know, and they work so hard as immigrants and then they still go to, you know, Wednesday night service and they still wake up early morning every single day to go to early morning prayer. And then they go to…work, right? And so, their sense of discipline and it’s just like the immigrant church. I see it more as I reflect on it. As I get older, I’m very thankful for what I’ve learned from my Korean immigrant experience and the senior pastors and grateful for just their investment in me. When I think about the second gen English ministries, that was a different experience and that’s where I spend most of my experience. I learned a lot and it was a sense of like, were all sort of closer in age. We’re all mostly second generation, same stage. So I think it allowed for more commonality. We were more close knit in that way. There was this like, we’re all Korean American. And so we had shared experiences. And I think that allowed for us to have mutual understanding and just so much easier for us to connect and do life together.

Yeah, I just felt like there some sense of excitement because we’re like growing up now and we’re like branching out. There was like a movement in direction as second gen and I’ve always sensed that like, you know, and it was just always trying to find a Korean church that would support that movement and that branching out. And so I feel like they were like trying to hold us back. Right. That was sort of the conflict and the tension that I felt that they weren’t allowing us to grow up. Right. They’re trying to control us and stuff. And so but that’s the second gen experience and that’s what I know best. And then going to a church like Doxa, it was really different. think like when you’re the minority and I think I was the only Asian American on staff for a bit. It was just, I don’t know, I think it was hard at times to really feel a sense of belonging and things like that. But I really think that it was my own, like that was me, that wasn’t them. And I had this sort of inferiority sort of complex sometimes creep into my heart that I didn’t belong, I wasn’t good enough. And I think sometimes that’s how like minorities feel in this country, right? And so I felt like that as well, that my voice didn’t matter. And I don’t think it was them at all, it was me. 

But the thing that I felt was that there was an incredible lot of freedom. There was no sense of obligation. The people there operated in just so much grace and so much faith and freedom. was a very natural part of their spirituality in their life. Whereas I think I came from a shame-based culture and maybe even like some or like legalistic tendencies would keep creeping in. I didn’t sense a lot of that from this majority white cultural church, right? there’s just, sometimes I think there’s so much freedom that I felt super uncomfortable at times. But there was like no legalistic tendency. There was like no, like less judgment for sure and more liberty in this church. 

And so one of the things I really enjoyed about going to that church is that when I was part of a Korean church or English ministry of a Korean church, Asian American church, felt like there’s always like, was always thinking twice about inviting people to our church if they were especially like non-Asian. And I would like, whether it was neighbors or parents on my daughter’s softball teams and things that I would say, yeah, you know, you should go to church.

But I was always hesitant to come to my church. And I think it was just because I didn’t know how to tell them that, but most of the people you’re gonna see are Asian American. And I didn’t know if they would be okay with that. But when I was at Doxa, I became the greatest evangelist for a while because nothing inhibited me. I just felt like I would invite everybody I could to check out Doxa Church because it just was…you know, uh, felt free to just invite them because that’s the world that we live in a majority culture world, same as a majority culture church that I was a part of and stuff. And so I think that’s something it made that I have to kind of continually wrestle with. Why was I so, um, hesitant and reserved and, know, even, um, I don’t know if shame is a word, but just sensitive about inviting people to my Asian American church. I feel less of that at Wintersburg and,

But at times I still have to remind certain friends who visit, I say, I just want you to know it’s mostly an Asian American church. I still find myself saying that and that’s something that I just need to of think through a little bit and reflect on.

Steve S. Chang 

So the Korean immigrant church, there are times of frustration, but you found beauty in prayer, mission, sacrifice, commitment. In the majority culture church that was Doxa, you found yourself sometimes wrestling with the imposter syndrome, but at the same time, experiencing amazing liberty, both internally and externally as you interface with the community inviting them. Tell me one of the beauties that you’ve seen at Wintersburg, a historic Japanese church.

Justin Kim

Yeah. Yeah, Winnersburg is, it’s, you know, I shared a little bit earlier, just the church was, it had gone through a season of struggle and that’s how I came into this church. The context was really tough, but the church itself is such a beautiful church. It’s you know, historic, rich history. It is a church that has really genuinely a multi-generational church. I love the seniors. We call them the seniors in our church and there are folks that are in their way past 70. You know, if you’re 60 or early 70s, you’re kind of young at a church. So I’m like a baby in diapers, right? But the seniors, many of them, maybe, you know, over 80 and so, and a few that are even over 100. We just celebrated someone’s birthday that’s 100 and two, 103 years old. 

Yeah, I think I just love worshiping with them. They’ve got such wonderful stories. Some of the men that I’ve had some time to, know, at times had lunch with them, the seniors fellowship, they remember their time of being interned in camps here in Wyoming and, you know, different like Utah, Nevada, Arizona. So they recollect, they remember some of that. They were still young, but they still remember and stuff and

But yeah, I just see their faithfulness. I see their genuine care, their perseverance. And I think at a church, if you were to ever visit Winnersburg, you do see it just very much in multi-generational congregation. And I’ve never been a part of a church like that. And it’s been such a joy. Our church is unique in that it has an influence of Hawaiian culture. A lot of the Japanese Americans were raise or they have some Hawaiian connection. And so we’ve got a powerful hula ministry, which I would not join because my hips will break and I want to be a blessing, not a burden, but a hula ministry is great. And we also have a Japanese speaking congregation called the Nichiko congregation that’s a part of our church. so they’re growing. 

They’re now close to 100, or here even more than that, but they’re growing and our Japanese speaking pastor, Pastor Mao and I, we’re really close. And it’s funny, like, growing up in an immigrant church, I would report to the Korean senior pastor, but I’m the senior pastor here, so he reports to me. so it’s just like, it feels so different. Like I never would have been expected this for myself. But I’m thinking back to my experience as an English congregation pastor of a Korean immigrant church and how I felt when the senior pastor made that decision or said that. And I’m really like harking back to those memories so that I can really be a blessing to the Japanese Nichiko congregation and really want them to feel like they’re not second class citizens or they get leftover facility space, whatnot, that they are very important. so, and like if they ever wanted to become their own church, you know, I told Mal, I think I told him that like, hey, yeah, if that’s your vision, let’s talk about it. I’m not going to hold you back. yeah, so I feel like all of my experiences have led me to this now. And Steve, I’ve told you, I would love to Lord willing finish here and steward this role and then give it back to give it back to the church for the next pastor when my time is up, right? And so we also have a beautiful sports ministry and a beautiful gym. And that’s another conversation for another day. But yeah, it’s a beautiful church.

Steve S. Chang 

Yeah, you do have a beautiful gem. So being with, let’s say, Korean Americans, when you particularized, there were a lot of camaraderie, commonality, et cetera. But at Winnersburg, there are people who are twice your age, people in their 70s, 80s, 90s, and 100s, who are English speaking who’ve had a rich history in the United States with their pains, et cetera. And you are relishing all of that. Now, let me ask you, and I oftentimes joke that you’re my Barnabas. Every time I hang out with you, am encouraged. And that’s why everyone wants to be your friend. I know that you don’t always naturally love everyone, but you somehow do. Can you tell us, is that your just natural disposition or how did the Lord develop that shepherding pastoral heart in you?

Justin Kim

Mm. Yeah, you know, I think that’s just, you know, I’m thankful for the way God’s wired me and I know everybody’s different and this is the way the Lord’s wired me. I think I was always drawn to the character in the Bible named Barnabas. to me, like, he had, he has such a significant role in Kingdom expansion and Paul’s ministry, right? Because it was part of us, the encourager, that wasn’t even his real name, that was his nickname. I think his real name is Joseph, but that was his nickname because that’s what he was doing. He was the son of encouragement. He was an encourager and he encouraged Paul. And I look at that and there are moments in my life, and I think so much of our Christian life is just, we need encouragement. We need to encourage each other. And especially in this day and culture, it’s hard and difficult and challenging to be a Christian. And so I just feel like there are times when people have come around me and just encouraged me in various ways. And I just wanted to do that. think it began, Steve though, with me, it was first born out of like insecurity in my life, you know, because the fear of man was really strong in my life. I was a people pleaser. I wanted to be liked. I wanted to be favored. And what better way than to do that than tickle people’s ears and speak nicely and kindly and encourage them. And as a Christian, we should do all of those things, but not out of a bad motivation. I think for many years, it was my niceness, my encouragement was born out of insecurity, and maybe even the idol of self-love to go even deeper into my heart. But I believe over the years, over the years, as I began to let the gospel penetrate my life, my heart, and I think the Lord genuinely has redeemed me in this area of my life. And I really feel like the gospel has really helped me to understand. I began to see the Holy Spirit’s role in like to exhort.

And to encourage and because of the gospel like genuine love for Jesus I think that’s that’s become a natural genuine disposition in my heart now because I and I feel like as a pastor the you know out of the prophet, know kingly, know those sort of roles I feel like I’m most shepherding right, you know, and so I Feel like the priestly that’s who I am like I’m most shepherd shepherd like that’s where my heart goes to. And as a pastor, I just feel like it’s more than preaching the word, but it’s living out the gospel and looking for ways to point people back to Jesus again and again, and just loving them for who they are and encouraging them as much as I can. I named one of my boys Barnabas too, so this is very important to me.

Steve S. Chang

So you think that it’s rooted a little bit in your propensity to be a people pleaser, to be liked. There are others who have a natural propensity to be competitive, to be feared and respected. But you, on the other hand, say, no, I want to be liked, I want to get along with you, per se. And God used that and redeemed it in order for you to love and leave people in a better place when before they met you. Now, let me ask you, now it’s interesting because I’ve had a conversation with people when we talk about Wintersburg, they say, I don’t know if I could have done it, what Justin is doing. It’s shepherding people twice my age and just loving on them. Justin, a lot of people just don’t have that kind of patience or a big enough heart, they want to go where the action is, where they can make a lot of noise, et cetera. If you are talking to a younger leader, let’s say in their 30s and they ask, Justin, I feel a call or I feel the Lord is leading me or in my current ministry situation, there are people that I am not naturally drawn to, that I don’t naturally love, but I feel God calling me to love and shepherd and pastor these people. Whether they’re people who are in their 70s, 80s who are from a different culture and language and land, or people in Seattle that are of the majority culture that make me feel like I am an imposter. What would you say to these younger leaders who are struggling with that?

Justin Kim

Yeah, that’s a great question. I don’t struggle with that as you know, because I wanted to come to… The seniors were… That’s what made this church attractive. I wanted to pastor these people and then be there for them when they are called home and to bury them. But I understand the hesitation that you described there that some people, younger pastors might have.

I don’t know. think as a leader, if they feel as a young capacity, feel some like hesitancy or trepidation about entering like a church that they don’t want to be at or they don’t want to shepherd certain kinds of people. I think like it, I wonder if like there’s some pride there or there’s some like, you know, maybe they’re

But that discomfort is not a bad thing either. I feel like it’s best to be honest, it’s best to be, know, that discomfort may be God’s invitation, not like, you His prevention or prohibition for serving there, you know? And I think if you are able to be honest and real about that and take it to the Lord, I think all the more reason for God to like, for you to depend on God and to seek His help. Because if He calls you, that calling is really important.

That calling is the most important thing. And you might be surprised of what he might do in and through you, even to sending you to a church that you might not want to go to, or you might least expect it to go to, that you don’t want to be at and stuff. so, I don’t know, I just feel like there are a lot of reasons why we see this often, where people are often hesitant and…

You know, but the pattern, their scripture, like, you know, their reasons why they say, I don’t want to do this. I don’t want to go to that. Or they’re scared to do this. And like I think about Moses, he says like, I’m not eloquent. I’m slow with speech. Or, you know, what if they don’t believe? He had all these reasons and excuses. I don’t think his hesitation was sinful. I think it was honest. And I like people to be honest. I want people to be vulnerable. And I think young leaders, need to be honest and vulnerable. But I think we should focus more on God’s response to Moses was simply, am with you. And I think that’s the most important thing. And I think his calling comes with his enablement. And it may be that if he calls you to a group of people, it’s not forever, right? It could be for a season. But again, if you go with a teachable heart and you’re just honest, with the Lord, think you might be surprised about what he does through that season for you. And so I don’t know if that’s helpful.

Steve S. Chang 

Yeah, so whether a leader is being called to a ministry situation with unfamiliar people or they have people that they don’t naturally feel an affinity to, God’s placed you there. And if that is God’s calling, then at least be honest with your discomfort. But at the same time, what you’re saying that, hey, could it be potentially pride that’s preventing you and know that if the Lord has called you there to those people that God will enable you also. And as he enables you that our hearts may turn and that our hearts will reflect the heart of God for the people, whether it be the non-Asians or the people who are in the 80s and 90s or whatever it may be. But that’s great.

Hey, Justin, let’s say your administrator gets ahold of this interview and says, hey, we love what you did, Pastor Justin. We want to show the last minute and a half of your interview on screen on Sunday for the Wintersburg family. Look into the camera and give them a shout out. And you. Ding.

Justin Kim

Hey, okay. Winnersburg, it is such an honor and a privilege for me to serve as your shepherd, your pastor. If I had a dollar for every time someone came up to me to thank me for coming to the church, I’d be a very wealthy man. But truly, it’s my honor and my privilege and a joy to be here. And I am so thankful and grateful. You are a beautiful church, Wintersburgians, love you, and I’m so excited to see what God has in store for us into the future.

Steve S. Chang 

Justin, thank you so much and loved our conversation. Loved, I love working alongside of you, Sola and so many of the other things that we do. I was so sad when you went up to Seattle. I was so happy when you came back. So for selfish reasons, I’m glad that you’re at Wintersburg. All right. Hey, thanks for our conversation. I’m going to stop.

Justin Kim 

Hahaha

Yeah. Thanks, Steve.