SLP Episode 6: From Pastor to President: A Conversation with Joel Kim

Sola Network 

Welcome to the SOLA Network Leaders Podcast, where we amplify the voices of pastors and ministry leaders shaping a gospel future for the emerging generation of Asian Americans and beyond. We hope you enjoy hearing different perspectives from various ministry leaders throughout the U.S.

Will Chang

Welcome everyone to Sola Leaders Podcast. My name is Will Chang and it’s my joy and honor and privilege to introduce you here today, President Joel Kim of Westminster Seminary California. Joel, thanks for taking time. Glad that you’re here to discuss and share your insights with us.

Joel Kim

Well, thanks for having me, Will. Grateful for SOLA, grateful for you, and delighted to be joining you today.

Will Chang

Yeah, Joel, why don’t we start off as usual to get a little bit about your background for our listeners and viewers who may not know you. You have a wide-ranging experience in terms of ministry and work. So maybe even if we could push back a little bit, share a little bit about your childhood, where did you grow up, how did you end up at Westminster, things of that nature.

Joel Kim

I’m old enough, Will, this might take a while. I was born into a believing family. My dad was actually a minister, a Presbyterian one in Korea. And so I was born in Korea, one of five kids. We immigrated when I was about 10 and we came to the States where my dad continued his studies and then pastored two churches, one up in Northern California, one in Southern California. It’s during that time that I think many assumed, but I also came to recognize that the Lord was calling me into ministry and decided to go to Westminster Seminary here where I currently serve and then went on to further studies and came back to pastor a Great American English ministry setting in Southern California, now 2001 when I got ordained. So it’s been a while since I had a chance to serve in that capacity. I’ve served in variety of churches, some in the Midwest, some out West, interned at a non-Korean church and served in many cases with Korean American churches. Been attending New Life PCA here, which is pastor by Pastor Ted Hamilton and I’m part of the PCA as a denomination. And that’s where we have been attending for now quite a while. And we’re delighted to be worshiping there and serving there, but that’s my brief background in terms of my life and journey in that way. Grateful for the prayers of my parents and many around me as I continued ministry. Initially I was in pastoral ministry. 

And then about 2005, my alma mater here at Westminster Seminary reached out and we had a conversation about possibly joining the faculty here. And so on July 1, I began my teaching and time flies as people say because as of this past July I’ve been serving here for 20 years and in 2017, by God’s grace, I was demoted to serve as president of the institution. And so I’ve been in the administrative side of the seminary education for now going into my ninth year. So in many ways, the Lord’s been very kind, but perhaps the most important part of my background is I’m married to Sharon, 20 plus years, along with a daughter, Anna, who is now finishing up college this fall and then a son, Simeon, who’s going to be finishing up a high school this upcoming year as well. We’ve been blessed and this has been a good season as parents and as a couple. We’re grateful to the Lord for his guidance thus far.

Will Chang 

Well, thanks for sharing Joel. I mean, as you already alluded, you have a lot of experience both in the sort of quote unquote front lines of being at the local church and pastoral ministry in the past nine years leading the institution of Westminster, California, raising scholars and pastors. So we’re going to touch base upon both areas and try to glean some insights. But if I could ask and maybe start with Westminster, California. So you’re the fourth president of the institution. And correct me if I’m wrong, you’re the first, how should I say minority president of the institution? Has that been like a different experience? I mean, you came from being faculty to the president. What has that experience been like? It has a long rich history of wonderful leaders and now you’re part of that great lineage.

Joel Kim

One fun story about the leadership here was that the three previous presidents were all named Roberts. And so there were Bob Strimple, Bob Dendulk, and Bob Godfrey were my predecessors. And so there is an ongoing joke about my name because I don’t fit the mold in that sense. And we recognize that our three Bobs were very faithful in leading the institution. I think one of the things that I’ve come to recognize in serving in this particular capacity has been how pastoral institutional leadership has been, at least for me. Maybe it’s one of those things where I’m gravitating toward what I’m comfortable with, but overall, institutional leadership has been much more pastoral than I anticipated. It’s a lot about people relationship. It’s about working with your colleagues both in terms of the administration and faculty. It’s about working with your board who are faithful servants in a variety of places and capacities and for me to be engaging with them in terms of seeing where the Lord is leading and building trust in that. It’s working with alumni as well as many who care for our institution, friends and donors who have been praying for us and supporting us and engaging them not just in terms of the work that we need to do but but drawing them into the ministry taking place so that they participate with us in terms of what the Lord is doing through the institution. So it’s been a great joy in that way. Not without struggles. think whenever people ask me, how do you feel about the work? I think the best way I can describe it as a West Coast person, it’s like being in the ocean. I’m not in the ocean all that often. I’m more of an indoors guy. So ocean is a foreign entity to me in some ways, but the water comes up right up to your nose. I’m not sinking, but at the same time, I don’t feel fully above water. And so we’re coming to realize the importance of and learning to depend upon the Lord for His guidance and His wisdom and trying to figure those things out along the way. And so it’s been a blessing and in many ways a learning experience for us.

Will Chang

Yeah, mean, mean, kind of sort of being able to participate in some ways to see how you’ve grown and really led the organization so well. I also think that probably a lot of our listeners and viewers don’t know necessarily what a seminary president may do, but it seems like you have to be a jack of all trades and an expert of all different kinds of industries and fields. I’m not sure what maybe the easiest way for you to share what a typical day is or maybe a week or month, but what would you say are some of your typical responsibilities and experiences as president?

Joel Kim

You know, there are a number of areas that obviously one engages in. I think you put it exactly right in many ways. Not every president, and certainly not me, we do not have expertise in every area that we have to be engaged in, but we have to be engaged in those things. On the one hand, because some of us are coming in from the faculty arena, we have teaching responsibilities, and that continues, although in a greatly reduced way.

You have certain management responsibilities as you lead the senior team. And we have a team called the Executive Council made up of deans and VPs who oversee the institution and the many areas that the institution needs to be cared for. And then we have an area that focuses on development, which has to do with fundraising. Many of the listeners might know that…

Those who come to seminaries, unlike the universities and colleges that many of us have attended, do not end up in positions that are lucrative per se. Meaning that, you we’re not thinking high income for our graduates per se. So the institution and all seminaries are like this, tries to keep the cost of education down so that the students can graduate and begin their ministry without the burden and the hindrance of loans or other financial responsibilities. We could do better, but we’re working toward that. So development is a major portion. And then when you look at the overall advancement of the institution, you’re leading the team to kind of point them in the right direction in terms of where we want to go. And so building that culture and priorities are things that we do. So in any given day, as one of my older mentors have said before, you come into the office just to kind of zero down in a day, you have certain priorities that you want to hit.

And then you end the day about having spent time, 80 % of the time on something that you weren’t intending to do that day. Either those things that arise or relationships that you have to tend to, or perhaps emergencies that you have to be mindful of. Not every day is like that. But oftentimes we find ourselves being engaged in various ways, putting out small fires, connecting things that are disconnected, and moving the institution, the people in the direction we want to go.

Will Chang

Yeah, mean, it’s thanks for sharing that Joel. It’s a wide breadth of responsibilities that you have. If I could press a little bit, and maybe it’s not a fair question, and we’re gonna transition in some ways to thinking about your experience at a local church. As being a seminary president, although very different, you mentioned that you to be very pastoral. I would imagine that your local church experience has somewhat prepared you for that, but at the same time, what are, is it more stressful than being a local church pastor? Or would you say local church pastor is more stressful or just a different kind of stress?

Joel Kim

I think ministry of any kind is stressful no matter where and what context. In some ways, there are complexities here that make it more difficult. That is, we recognize that the scale of budget is different, complexity of both investments and the facilities are there, though we have many churches that are so big. And then of course, the relationships, not only do we have some that are local, we have lots who are not local.

And managing some of those relationships in distance can be difficult and overwhelming at times. And recognizing that we have students that we’re trying to launch, both the enrollment side and recruitment side, and then trying to let people know what we do in seminaries, those can be taxing and somewhat more complex than, let’s say, the local church. But on the other hand, if I can say it this way, ⁓

I don’t have emergency calls at 9 p.m. that someone passed away that I need to minister to right at their bedside. I just, I don’t. We have people who obviously are going through various struggles that I have to be engaged in, but I’m not daily engaged in that as many of my pastoral friends are engaged in. Or for that matter, in many ways, I believe that seminary education is such an important one for producing future pastors for my grandchildren.

And that’s the work that we’re engaged in. But the pastors are involved in frontline work. We’re actually backline work. We’re reserve lines hoping to launch and send workers to the front lines. And they’re taking a lot more fire on a day to day, hour by hour ways than I think many of us do on a regular basis. It doesn’t mean we’re engaged in different ways. 

But I think the stresses as well as the burdens that my friends share in the front lines, I certainly, I don’t think it’s comparable in many ways. So it’s different, I think, as we’re engaged in ministry together.

Will Chang

Sure. And then if I could also ask in the difference of it, I’m sort of assuming that your pastoral ministry experience has been mostly in the Korean American church. What are some leadership differences, if at all, are there between serving mainly in a more diverse or more Anglo dominated institution versus an institution like a local church that’s Asian American, whether first or second gen.

Joel Kim

You know, there are obviously components here that are different and difficult, no doubt. But if I can summarize it this way, and again, my experience is different than others’ experiences. So I recognize that this is just one person’s perspective, but the similarity and continuity is greater than discontinuity and dissimilarities. I think the struggle, part of the struggle has to do with the difference in not just racial or ethnic culture, but just the culture of leading a ministry like this versus, let’s say, a church. There is a scale difference. There is a complexity difference. And there is this kind of diversified places in which you have to work where you are being called in to engage where you’re not trained for this. I wasn’t trained for this. And so in that sense, I think there are some difficulties that arise naturally because of the differences in ministry. And if I can say it as a Korean American in particular, having served in Korean American churches, oftentimes, I think one thing that has been a struggle for me is less about the culture, though there are elements that are there that certainly worth discussing, but there are elements there that are really personal. That is, I think I grew up thinking and hearing from other people how different a Korean church is versus non-Korean churches and how different the leadership of a Korean church is from non-Korean churches. And you come to accept that in many ways, you kind of drink that in to the degree that when you’re thinking about what you’re doing, there is this kind of insecurity that’s natural for any kind of leadership transition to begin with, but self-doubt in terms of how one goes about doing it.

I don’t know if this is true of everyone, but I know that many have shared, at least people who are my peers in this line of work, how there is this kind of imposter syndrome coming in because you’re trying to figure things out. I’m not, I don’t think that’s necessarily because I’m Korean American, but there are certain things, you know, you’re overly sensitive to things like, hey, what is cultural and what is not cultural? That is, am I being too Korean about some of these things that I’m saying and doing versus not Korean?

Questions of that nature that I’ve come to embrace and accept for myself were really forefront in my thinking. I didn’t want to look Korean. I didn’t want to act Korean. I didn’t want to do those things that were perceived as ethnic minority or otherwise. But you’ve come to realize that these are natural things that make up who I am. And in my experience growth as well as my age, and part of that is age, I think you’ve come to care less about that. And it’s not like I could hide the fact that I’m Korean American. And it’s not like it’s unknown to people. I grew up in a Korean American church where I learned many of the very positives that Korean churches offer, prayer, devotion to church, love of the global church, humility in terms of leadership. 

At the same time, all these things that are sometimes baggages for us when it comes to how we understand what the Korean churches were like. So in many ways, I think if there were a jump and a transition when it comes to me being a minority person, it was a lot of internal one, just coming to grips and understanding at peace with the fact that God has made me who I am with the experiences that are gonna be different and unique and recognizing that those are not necessarily negatives, but positives that can contribute to the growth and flourishing of the institution as well as the church at large. I’m not sure if that gets all the question that you’re asking, but those are things that I at times struggle with and try to figure out.

Will Chang

Yeah, no, I mean, it definitely makes sense. I think many of our listeners can probably resonate what you’re saying. Would you be able to share, I guess, as like your experience as a president, when you’re sharing and thinking about if you’re too Korean or not enough or how that’s received and perceived? Can you share an example of what that was like and how long did it take for you to sort of be comfortable with how God has created you as a leader and not think necessarily along those lines as the forefront of the institution?

Joel Kim

You know, there are so many things here that play a role, at least in my mind. And I may be being overly honest if I am, just cut this out as you think about it. But you know, I think there’s an interplay of my own personal experience. There’s the interplay of my age at that time in which I began. There is the interplay of the kind of people and the culture we find ourselves in. And so where I have a struggle even in hindsight is to pinpoint exactly where and this or what. But as to what caused it and how I’ve grown out of some of those things, et cetera. One of the things that you recognize in a Korean culture is that oftentimes the leadership position is not one of those positions that demand constant attention, the rah rah.

You know, the expectation that you have to be speaking always and dictating how things go. I think oftentimes there is a cultural element of listening first and speaking last and speaking least are things that are natural to, I think, Korean American churches and how sometimes leadership is done. Or for that matter, even something as basic as how we address other people and how we sit in a group setting, you know, in terms of

You know, where do we position ourselves in terms of sitting? This may not be a thought process that everyone goes through, but as someone who grew up in a culture, you never sit at the center or at the front. To be in a situation where you’re placed at the center or the front was something of a discomfort for someone like me, or for a preacher like me who doesn’t mind speaking about my Korean American upbringing and experience and my immigrant background, even in context that’s not Korean American, sometimes you wonder, is this overdoing it? Am I oversharing what’s going on? But I’ve come to realize all those things sometimes are things that play in my mind much more than anything else. Yes, you come to recognize and be comfortable with the fact that sometimes you have to speak first and you have to speak with a louder voice, not in terms of yelling, just in terms of conviction and leading.

Although my family and perhaps you will also will say I don’t stop talking and I do speak too loudly. But sometimes those are things that come with responsibility in terms of decision making process. And then in terms of my own background that’s unique, that’s unfamiliar to many. Frankly, this is, I’ve come to realize how God made me. It’s not that we haven’t talked about this before, but you become more comfortable in your skin, your background, you come to realize that this is what makes you unique. It’s kind of like when I was young, learning how to speak English when I was in grade school, wanting to have that perfect accent. And so I over enunciate every word. And then, you know, the biggest compliment was when someone who is not, who is majority culture, taking a call from me and later on meeting the person saying, I thought you were white. 

Thinking that that was the greatest compliment and realizing now boy there are so many different accents and it indicates to us Where they’re coming from and what their background is and I’ve come to be much more comfortable in my own skin That this is how not only God has bade me but this is how God has led me and sharing those things without any kind of hindrance or shame I Think is something that comes with both experience as well as aging. I hate to keep emphasizing getting older, I think there’s something to it. You come to realize the Lord knows what He’s doing and we can trust Him regarding it.

Will Chang

Joel, thanks for sharing. mean, I do want to say that I think we could relate about sort of maybe cultural differences of sitting around the table, but I can’t imagine you doing that per se because the magnitude and the presence of your voice will always be center stage at every meeting. So I think you’re always going to be kind of the center of attention in groups that you sit in.

Joel Kim

You the sense that I get, said it respectfully and I think that was an insult.

Will Chang

No, but honestly, thanks for sharing. Joel, if you could, one last question. I do want to transition to local church. I think in terms of just general leadership, you mentioned imposter syndrome, and I can relate to that when I pass it to new church or even my new role now. But how long did that take for you? You’re nine years as president. I’m sure it’s not exactly a time point, but roughly, like how long did that take? You mentioned it was age. Was it when you turned 50 or was it just at some several years of experience in the role or how did that play out?

Joel Kim

I think, you know, I don’t want to make it into one or two things because I don’t know. I’m not that self-reflective at times, but I think it’s when I went around the block a few times. To give you a chief example for the line of work that I’m doing, part of that is fundraising, right? It’s talking to people about money. That’s not necessarily what Korean Americans naturally do. That’s not certainly, you know, I’m used to doing. I’m not trained for this.

And then you’re replacing someone who is a 24 year guy in my position. So my predecessor, Bob Godfrey, who was a wonderful mentor and a lead example for me, served 24 years in this capacity. so initially you’re so nervous about, can I make it? Would the donors follow? Would this happen? And then you spend one year and then you realize, you know what, by God’s grace, we survived. And then you spend the second year, wow, the Lord’s been very kind. You spend the third time and you come to realize, I think, the Lord leading you and the trust that we can have in him becomes more certain because it’s visible and tangible. But I will say this, every time you feel like you reach a plateau, there are new things that make you feel like you’re an imposter syndrome. So I think that has more to do with me and my lack of faith and trust in the Lord than, you know, it’s something else involved here because the more you kind of figure out the big stuff,

There are a bunch of smaller stuff that needs to be figured out that I’m still trying to figure out. And my guess is until the Lord decides it’s time for me to step down, I will always be able to tell you that there are things here I’m still trying to figure out and I’m very insecure about yet.

Will Chang 

I see. Okay, I think that’s understandable and I think we can all relate to that on some level. Maybe it’s the way the Lord humbles us, no matter how gifted or how much experience we have. If I could switch gears a little bit and talk and discuss with you about the Korean American church or even Asian American church. There are some thoughts out there currently that as we try to sort of forecast what the future of the Korean American church may be, sort of the immigration patterns that we see from Korea, sort of. And you’re seeing it on the, as your role as a president raising future pastors and seminary students. What is your broad general thoughts about the Korean American church? Do you think that given census data, as well as maybe more indication that the younger generation will interracially marriage, which is wonderful, but do you see, where do you see the Korean American church let’s say down the road in the next 10 to 20 years or so.

Joel Kim

And you know, I can say it with all honesty, we’ve been doing this kind of prognostication since 30 years ago, and I’ve been wrong at every stage. And so I’m not sure how valuable any of these thoughts might be. It is true. We are decreasing in terms of birth rates, in terms of immigration, as well as international students. So those things do affect the Korean American churches in particular. I think I would like to think that I’m fairly optimistic in terms of where things are at. Optimistic not in the sense that we’re going to perpetually continue the church as an immigrant church to a foreseeable future. I think we will always have a Korean speaking church in my lifetime anyways, because even with a trickling of international students and immigration, we have pockets and centers that will continue in many of these places.

Joel Kim

Lord willing, these Korean language churches will continue to flourish. I do think that one of the wonderful signs that we have of the blessing of the Lord is the growth of Asian American churches in general. Some of them Korean American specific, others who are Asian American, more Pan Asian as a whole. These churches are growing, served by wonderfully gifted pastors and serving the community so well, but not just in terms of serving the Asian American community well, but serving beyond the Asian American community. Speaking from the voice of someone with different experiences and background, being able to serve the broader church and broader evangelical circle is what we’re beginning to see quite a bit more, both at the leadership level and at the local church level. And I’m encouraged by where things are at. Who knows exactly what the percentage will be pre-COVID.

They were talking about over 4,000 Korean ethnic churches. My guess is it’s far fewer now, and I’m sure that number will continue to trend in the same direction. But at the same time, the Lord continues to bless the second and third and fourth generation churches that are coming up. That’s less Korean identified and more broadly Asian identified. Serving the broader church, I think is a positive direction that we see.

Will Chang 

Okay, visual things, that’s interesting. So you’re saying that in some level, second and third, fourth generation, that you see them just being, having sort of not necessarily a platform, but being able to speak and to lead in different organizations that are not just traditionally KM, or second gen Korean context? Okay.

Joel Kim

Yeah, well, mean, think Solace doing that already, if you think about it. I think in many ways, well, the dedicated mission of Solace is to serve the Asian American community platforming voices and amplifying. I think that’s the word that’s been used, right? In terms of amplifying voices of Asian Americans, those voices land not just among Korean Americans, but in more broad circles, you know, in terms of how it’s serving the community. And I think that voice is incredibly important. And I think for the health of the church beyond the Asian American churches, this voice needs to be heard. And so I’m grateful for the ministry in terms of being able to platform these voices so that it serves not only the Asian American or for that matter, Korean American community, but the broader evangelical community and broader church community at large, I think is a positive direction that Sola represents. And I think that’s just one of number of things that way, even leadership levels of you see various individuals who are Asian Americans taking leadership, whether it’s inner varsity or Lausanne or others. I think those are positive trends where both the questions as well as the vision for where the Lord is leading becomes even more broadened as a result also.

Will Chang

Yeah, makes sense. Joel, if I could ask you, lot of the conversations in the Korean American circles tend to center on in the past between the differences between first and second gen. Certainly that’s a discussion that continues and needs to happen as we’re thoughtful and thankful for the first generation and we ride on their coattails as second generation. But I want to sort of ask, cultural or generational differences, not between first and second gen, but do you have any observations between second gen gen X Korean American pastors and second gen millennial Korean American pastors? I think you and I even talked about it once between older millennials and younger millennials, which I thought was a very insightful point, but kind of want to broaden that discussion and see like what are the thoughts you have about that rather than just comparing to the first gen.

Joel Kim 

I feel like you’re trying to set up a trap for me. 

Will Chang

I just want to glean the insight, not let it get the privilege of your one hour or so here. 

Joel Kim 

It’s easier for us to talk about first generation. And as I was indicating before, I’ve come to realize the criticisms I had of first generation. I’ve come to realize I do the same thing, just manifested later in life. And there is something about stages of life that I think, I feel like many of the criticisms that I’ve heard about the, I’ve levied against the first generation leadership are being levied against someone like me, let’s say of my generation. Just we’ve become the establishment in some ways in terms of age and stage in life. And so I recognize that there’s a fluctuation in life and this is not to minimize the reality of the struggles and challenges and differences, but simply sometimes put in perspective of time and distance.

It’s less like this, it’s more like a medium range up and down taking place. We’ve had many conversations about my younger brothers who are more gifted than I’ve ever been, more knowledgeable about the world scene as well as the cultural scene than I’ve ever been, more creative than I could ever be in terms of where they are and in terms of their engagement, more aware of situation that I think many of us were. We were disconnected. We were learning. We’re trying to figure things out along the way. And so I marvel at their ability to lead and see some of those things. I sometimes wonder that it’s a category that’s hard for us to put into just individual generations because I think that’s hard and too broad. And oftentimes our generational experiences are couched in our personal experiences and sometimes we universalize our personal experiences to larger ones. But if I can universalize now and do a caricature and forgive me because it’s just one man’s opinion, I think we were more, my generation, there was a bit more optimism, maybe naivete, but there was optimism about what the Lord was doing and where the Lord was leading and perhaps how the Lord has prepared and gifted us to serve in that capacity. And this is not to compare it negatively and say that my younger brothers are pessimistic. They’re immensely more gifted than I’ve ever been. But in that sense, they went through some things in life that are difficult. mean, we look back at traumatic events like immigration in many ways for someone like me. And certainly there are many other tensions that we can point back to.

Joel Kim

But my millennial brothers and others have gone through a number of things, financial downturn, wars, as well as many of the challenges culturally that they’re very aware of. And I think some of those things, whether we know it or not, we wear them and we wear them heavily. so sometimes I wonder the kind of, not false optimism, but trusting optimism of the Lord what the Lord might be able to do is sometimes not as forefront as Perhaps the kind of almost naive Optimism that perhaps many of us might have experienced. I hope my brothers and others don’t take what I say as a Criticism this is this is what you classically see you you get older and you see things and and you’re trying to nuance it but you’re not sure and so if there is an encouragement as an older person, and this is for myself as well, if there can be this kind of Lord trusting optimism about some things, both about the church locally and universally, I wonder how that might work itself out.

Will Chang 

I hate hate you. I hate you. Mm-hmm. Do you do you find if I could follow up do you find any I guess if you couldn’t give a word of encouragement to second-gen leaders whether male female pastors and whatnot Do you think that encouragement would be different for those who are 50s versus those who are early 20s in terms of those some form of ministry pastoral missions or along those lines

Joel Kim

I don’t think so. Part of the way I was framing it is one of my concern is longevity, resilience in ministry. And when I speak about trusting optimism, I don’t mean that they’re gonna do big things for the Lord. They may, and certainly we hope that the Lord uses us in that pattern. But one of the concerns that I think many of us share is the resilience in ministry, it’s already hard enough for someone in the line of work that I do to bring people into a space where they’re trained and ready to serve the Lord. But we recognize how difficult this is. And so as they’re launched, we see all too often people moving on, not because they’re of age, but because of the difficulties and challenges which are real. Moving away from ministry into something else. And the Lord leads people differently. I don’t mean to minimize that. But sometimes you wonder whether this kind of resilience, patience, trust in terms of being faithful where the Lord has placed them a little while longer. Hopefully that’s not completely naive, but is something that should be an encouragement to all, not just those who are beginning in 20s and 30s, but those who are in our 50s and 60s. I would like to think in my 50s that I still have 15, 20 good years left in terms of serving the Lord and faithfulness till the end and running the race is, you know, we’ve talked often on campus about how what’s important is not giftedness, but godliness.

And here these gifted individuals being able to finish the race and finish the race well is what we’re praying for. And so this is an element of not a criticism, I hope, but just an encouragement because I remember my grandfather was also a preacher and he led a decent sized church in Korea. He’s with the Lord now. He died in 2005 or six right around there.

I remember asking him one time, past his retirement, said, how did you do ministry? I mean, what was, what’s the secret sauce here? I was a younger man asking him, what’s the secret sauce for success? And his reply to me that stuck with me was, I just stayed. I had nowhere else to go. I just stayed. And he said, and the Lord continue to bless it. And he pastored a single church for about 39 years. 

I think there is something to that. We have so many options and choices now and certainly don’t want to minimize priorities as well as the very real struggles that many of us go through. But resilience and longevity is one of the prayers that I have for my younger brothers and sisters.

Will Chang

Awesome. Yeah. Yeah. That’s a good word. always did kind of wonder that, you know, for the younger brothers and sisters that are millennial, Gen Z and whatnot, that they’re multi gifted. They’re born in technology. They’re much more in tune with the culture and justice. And sometimes I wonder that because of that and their giftedness, they’ll have many more options than somebody like me who’s in upper 40s or even those who are mid to lower 50s in that to point out longevity might present a different challenge for like the younger millennials. You have multiple gifts and multiple interests and content make maybe perhaps arguably easier than some of us can. And so that’ll be something that could be remained to be seen. Yeah, it’s interesting to see. Yeah.

Joel Kim

And I hope that all that can be poured into ministry, I guess, is my prayerful hope.

Will Chang

Yeah, I think that’s a good word, Joel. As we begin to the corner though, I want to sort of end on a series of just more personal questions so that viewers and listeners can get to know you on a different level and then want to end on a couple of prayer requests for the institution at Westminster. But just kind of typical questions to get to know so that people could see you in a different light perhaps. But maybe we can start off by saying, do you have like a favorite color? Do you have a favorite? 

Joel Kim

Sure. Thank you.

Will Chang

Yeah, do you have a favorite color?

Joel Kim 

Green. All right.

Will Chang)

Green’s our favorite color. Interesting. That’s awesome. Yeah. Okay. I’ve known you for a lot of years, That’s not what I thought you were gonna say. So even now, after don’t know, some over a decade, this is very new to me, which is great. So black or navy blue, gray, something like more conservative. But green’s an excellent choice, yeah.

Joel Kim

Yeah, yeah. I almost feel like we’re on a first date, Will. yeah, no, is my favorite color. I don’t know why.

What did you think I was gonna say? Well, I’m not sure if you really feel that way, but yes, green is my… I have a bunch of green t-shirts, and so if you hang out with me at home, you’ll see that green… Green is my casual fave.

Will Chang

Okay. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So you’re always prepared for St. Patrick’s Day. That’s that’s gonna be fantastic. Do you have a favorite food?

Joel Kim 

I am all the time. Yeah, Irish background. You know, generally I like Korean food as a whole, though I don’t discriminate regarding foods. my favorite Korean food probably is a comfort food that I grew up with, is yukgaejang is like a Korean spicy stew, which I love quite a bit. So I guess I’ll say that.

Will Chang

Yeah. Yeah. Okay, yeah, great choice. Outside of the US, what is your favorite place that you have visited?

Joel Kim

Man, certainly in many places that we’ve enjoyed, but we still love going back to Korea. know, except for my immediate family, all of my extended family members are in Korea, so that’s one factor. But both food and culture and feeling of being home, in many ways, it’s a place that we do love visiting along the way as well. But not to minimize any other places, but we do love visiting Korea.

Will Chang

Okay. Yeah, now of course that makes all the sense. And do you have a favorite book, fiction, nonfiction, theological, or something that really just you reread regularly if something along those lines?

Joel Kim

Someone asked me about this recently. The book that I mentioned to the person was Team of Rivals by Doris Goodwin Kearns. It’s a nonfiction. It’s about the senior team that surrounded Abraham Lincoln during his tenure during that time period. I’ve read it, I’ve listened to it, and it’s just on Books on Tape as well. it shows my age that I said Books on Tape, didn’t I? 

Will Chang

Yes.

Joel Kim

All that to say, it was such an intriguing study on human leadership and psyche that I’ve really enjoyed that as well. One of my favorite theological books was Knowing God by J.I. Packer. That was one of those books that really changed my perspective, not changed my perspective, confirmed my perspectives theologically as a college student and still recommend that heartily as one of the ways to approach the reading. 

Will Chang 

JI Packer? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that’s great. Yeah, fantastic. Do you have a favorite place that you like to shop?

Joel Kim

Romans in particular. I know why you’re smiling Will, because you know my answer to it. Just so that others understand that Will has tried to dress me well for a long time, but my favorite place to shop still is Costco. No, you don’t believe that actually. It’s every man’s kind of a place. I don’t know, there’s a comedian, Asian American one, Shang Wing I think is his name. I’m not trying to recommend a stand-up comic per se but he talks about how one of the signs of aging was to indicate that you really don’t care what people think about how you dress and so you buy your first pair of pants from Costco. I’ve been buying my first pair of pants from Costco since my 20s and so I’m a very dedicated Kirkland brand aficionado. You know obviously my wife being a thoughtful person she buys me from other places but if I had my choice…

Will Chang

Right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah Joel, that just means you are godly or more mature beyond your years. So that’s perfectly fine. Shopping at Kirkland at 20.

Joel Kim

I would go to Costco over and over again. Again, you made that sound like compliment, but there was an underhanded thorn. But I do like Costco for sure.

Will Chang

I meant it that way too. Okay, that’s great. More of a serious question, who would you consider or who is one person that really influenced you just as a person in life? Doesn’t have to be ministry, but a role model, a mentor, who is one, I’m imagining of several people who come to mind?

Joel Kim 

Yeah, you know what? This is gonna sound incredibly trite, but my dad and mom played outsized roles in my life, even as parents. there is that everything we see and do, obviously they played a huge role, but my dad being a minister himself and my my mom is a minister’s daughter, minister’s wife, and a minister’s mom. And I still remember her recommendation to my wife Sharon when we were getting married. She said, you know, Sharon, if you have things that you want to share about your husband’s preaching on any given Sunday, wait until Wednesday, she said, because by that point, he would have kind of cried out all the mistakes that he might have made and he’ll be done worrying about it because by Tuesday he has to think about the next sermon following week. So by Wednesday he won’t be as sensitive. I’m giving a very silly example, but overall their modeling and their insights at various places in my life and they continue to be in many ways the prayer warriors that support our family and myself. And so.

While there may be many others, I think I can honestly say that they have played a mentor’s role, whether they like that or not, in a tremendous way for me.

Will Chang 

Thanks Joel. Last question is, how can viewers and us pray for Westminster Seminary California and yourself and the family? Are there a couple of prayer requests that come to mind?

Joel Kim

Thank you for that. I appreciate that very much. Wisdom is one thing we’re all praying for as a team. So many things are changing really rapidly, not just in terms of our culture and the location where we find ourselves in San Diego and in California, but also in terms of the seminary education as well. Some of the listeners might know that we have maintained in-person education only in terms of training up future pastors. And our convictions are fairly straightforward. That is, there are so many different ways that are very good in training and raising up pastors.

There’s an element of teaching ministry, but there’s an element of formation. So it’s not just about information in seminaries, but about formation. And that’s better done in person than otherwise is our conviction. Those are one of many, obviously, decisions as well as convictions we stand by. And so we require a lot of wisdom in terms of navigating some of the challenges and changes. And in those areas, we covet your prayers for wisdom and then faithfulness. It’s easy for us to, you know, obviously take different roads along the way, but one of the things that we want to be is we want to be an institution that faithfully lifts up the name of Jesus standing on the Word of God for many decades to come. And that’s our goal in prayer. And so we covet your prayers that we may remain faithful, convicted and not compromising on the Word in our faithfulness that we do.

And for that end, that means that we need a lot of students, so we need a lot of funds. And so, covet your prayers for students and funds. And if anybody’s interested in dropping by, please do drop by and say hello. We would love to be able to see you. But pray for us and send your students to us.

Will Chang 

Joel, thanks for sharing that. We certainly will keep that in prayer. And thank you for your time and your insights and sharing your experience in life with us. I think myself and also our viewers will benefit tremendously from this. So thank you for your time.

Joel Kim

Thank you, Will. Thanks for the opportunity.

Will Chang 

For sure. I’ll talk to you later.

Sola Network 

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