Thank You, Harold: Sending off SOLA Network’s Outgoing President

Will Chang:  Welcome everyone to our SOLA Network interview. I’m Will Chang. I’m one of the more recently appointed board of trustees and I’m joined here today with none other than Pastor Harold. And Pastor Harold Kim is the former senior, if not founding pastor of CCSC. God is working his life through many transitions with his personal calling as well, transitions with SOLA.

So we wanted to take an opportunity to talk with Harold about these changes, these transitions, lessons learned, heartache, celebrations, all of this. And so Harold, thanks for joining us. Uh, you know, welcome to this interview and glad that you’re taking the time to talk with us.  

Harold Kim: Thanks for doing this. Will, on behalf of SOLA and everyone who may listen and benefit from this a little bit. Thanks for doing this.  

Will Chang: Yeah. I’m sure a lot of us are not only somewhat curious, but also eager to pray for you and excited for what the Lord has in store. And so why don’t we get right into it, Harold? And I guess one of the first questions that I personally wanted to, to know about and hear your thoughts and wisdom is that, uh, given your long track record of pastoral ministry, uh, particularly at CCSC founding pastor, been there for almost two decades, as you had some time to step away, what are some of your reflections, some of your thoughts or lessons learned for yourself personally or in pastoral ministry in general? 

Harold Kim: Yeah, thanks for that. I think I said it at the Farewell, which was last April after 17 years at CCSC.  Uh, I know it’s really by the sheer grace of God.  I know that sounds cliche, but for me, I think if anyone knows me pretty well,  I definitely have some of ADHD and all kinds of things that have not been diagnosed. 

And for me to last and persevere through some seasons there,  even 17 years, I look back and increasingly so I’m just filled with  gratitude, you know, I’ll be for God. And of course, the people at CCSC, um, some lessons or perspectives, yeah, they’re, they’re ongoing and  some real revelations are coming to light.

I mean, I think I’ll begin with, you know, CCSC, I’ve called it, and I still consider her like my third child.  I’m really, uh, grateful that my wife, Sonny and, my two daughters, Taylor and Elizabeth, who were four and two when we started at CCSC,  and, uh, you know, now one is a graduate from college, the other one’s a sophomore in college.

You know, the fact that they love god, love the gospel, love the church. One is serving at the church to this day, along with my life, uh, along with my wife, you know, loving the Church of God. You know, all of this, uh, rather than being jealous or resentful,  uh, is really on account of, you know, God’s love poured out through that.

And it’s also because they were so well loved on, you know, at CCSC. So thank god for that. Um,  reflections for myself, uh, I’ll try to keep it somewhat contained. Uh, I, I’ve publicly confessed or talked about this before,  but I think in a nutshell, I as a pastor, anybody else, when you idolize something, a pastor can idolize pastoral ministry. 

A pastor like myself can idolize the condition or the status and the numbers of the wellbeing of a church.  And, you know, as the Bible promises you idolize anything,  it could be romance, right status. Our kids’ performance, their well adjustment, their health or their success, whatever it may be.  I have experienced, painfully know, slowly but surely, uh, it will let you down.

Anything that I put on that pedestal that only rightfully should belong to God  will disappoint. It will drain, it’ll demand more of me than I could ever offer, and it’ll actually demand more on me than I’ve been called to offer.  Uh, so this is again, just an ongoing sobering, uh, lesson that I’ve been realizing.

I think this part and parcel led to my burnout about four or five years ago. Mm-hmm. I put it in a little bit of a different way recently. I’m able to articulate it this way. Looking back,  I remember how many times I could brag about CCSC and the people there.  I was so proud of her.  Uh, but what struck me recently is maybe how proud I was and how much I would brag about CCSC and brag so little about Jesus  and his actual growing global kingdom. So yeah, certainly you’re looking at a guy  who, um, if you loved a church too much, I actually think I love Jesus too little.  He loved the ministry too much. You know, I’m loving the man Christ Jesus, and, and his real overall agenda too little.

So I think that’s one thing that  I’m gonna continue to repent from, repent from, and, uh, you know, try to move forward. Uh, another aspect,  uh, I think being in, uh, reformed circles, which I think has all the riches when it comes to content, uh, I think we could be disproportionate, at least in my pastoral ministry, I think have been disproportionate or imbalanced. 

Meaning I put so much emphasis on the preaching of the word. I put so much emphasis on gospel content,  put a lot of time and energy along with our entire church, that the preaching of God’s word. Yes, it still is I think, central to the worship of God. However, what is missing and I think lacking disproportionately is the time and the energy to respond to the preaching of God’s word. 

The time and energy and attention it should take for every individual here or worshiper member of that church  to reflect on digest,  to personally  feel like God, I don’t wanna leave this place until by your Holy Spirit. You own me with it, but you grip me with it.  And so more or less what I’m saying is. 

Uh, there is a disproportionate time put into the preaching of God’s word. I don’t, I think there needs to be a lot more time and energy in the praise and the prayers  that are proceeding, or especially in response that, uh,  to the preaching of God’s word. Because I think at that point it’s really so much we, you know, we, we’ve heard this say, you know, you can hear a good sermon, but it’s not great until the Holy Spirit pierces your heart with it. 

It’s never great in life giving or life changing until God speaks into the depths of our souls by the power of His Holy Spirit who comes through his word.  And so, yeah. I think one of the reflections I’ve been having as I go to Korean ministry, early morning prayers and maybe more charismatic variety type of churches that have extended praise and prayer times after the preaching of God’s word.

I am reminded and I’m struck about disproportion how little attention time I gave toward that.  Not only to myself personally, but in the public worship,  uh, leading and modeling and pushing that.  Um, I really do think that after the word of God has preached,  we should be able to sit there  and think about it,  wrestle with it,  agonize over it,  maybe weep over it,  and just sit there and pray to God, holy Spirit,  I’m not gonna leave this place until, and I’m gonna say it until I experience or sense you’re doing something with that word in my heart. 

And I think, uh, given the lack of time and energy spent in that has been a disproportionality, uh, if I might say. And so, you know, if, if, you know, all of our goals is, is to see salvation.  And discipleship and life change. And I think this is where, uh, one of the areas, um, uh, after having pastor to CCSE, I think moving forward, uh, this is something I would like to, uh, restore and recover and really put into practice.

You know, I know all this in principle, word and spirit, right? Word of God in prayer. I know it in principle, but I think practically I had not put it into practice as much as I should. And this may explain some of the little bit of a languishing, congested, stuffy, uh, impoverished condition, you know? And, you know, as the pastor goes, so goes the church.

This is on me as a pastor, leader or officer. And I, I, I wanna be much more unapologetic and bold about the time after the word of God has preached. And if it’s preached faithfully, hopefully it’s just preached in the power of the Holy Spirit. But I wanna allow much more time now  where people can.

Personally engage and respond and cry out and repent to do what they need to do, uh, in their own time because we live in a chaotic, chaotic, busy world. And, um, there’s so little time and energy and intentionality spent  out of a given week upon the word of God. And then we just rush right back into our chaotic lives.

And no wonder, right, as Jesus gave in that parable, the deceitfulness or the cares of the stress of the world just choke, right? They just choke out that seed. They choke out that wound.  Um, so yeah, a little bit of a long-winded way of one of my reflections and, uh, I’ve been  excited about thinking what would a future Sunday worship look like?

And I think there needs to be a little bit more proportions given to that. Uh, last but not least, uh, if I might summarize at least Asian American ministry circles that I’ve been part of with now maybe close to 30 years,  uh, we are not only responsible and call to preach the gospel.  And I’m a little older now.

I think the other calling that I need to attend to  and bring alongside gospel preaching is what I might call now gospel reparenting, gospel reparenting. And that may be my for now working summary word of, uh, of discipleship, you know, really gaining into people’s.  Yeah, I, I think gospel reparenting has so much to do with after you’ve heard the word of God, let me show you and teach you how to apply that in everyday situations. 

Uh, let me get so close to you and vulnerable to you as well as you get vulnerable and close to me in discipleship that, you know, what do we do with our family of origins? The hurts and the traumas and abuses there.  What do I do when I’m so upset and unforgiving with my own wife or my own kids? You know, how do I apologize?

Repent to that. What do we do when our kid’s performance may. Not be up to par or we’re idolizing and stressing over it too much. And it really hinders the rest of our spiritual commitments and growth. So I think in these practical areas, re-parenting is really, uh, much more up close in the flesh as the Great commission says, right.

Teaching people, showing people how to obey that gospel in every area of life. Mm-hmm. And I do that know that, um, that’s been lacking in my own personal ministry. I’ve been, you know, putting so much  emphasis upon the preaching. Mm-hmm. But yeah, gospel re guarantee,  you know, there’s a, there’s a popular program out there called Life On Life Discipleship, and so I think, uh, I’m sure life on Life discipleship would be something I could do that.

Will Chang: Harold, thanks for the, there’s a lot there that was, you know, very eloquent and insightful. And I do have a couple of follow up questions. Um, for the sake of time, won’t be able to ask everything that I would guess that our. On our listeners minds, but going back to a couple, oh, you offered three thoughts.

Going back to the second one about allocating more time to letting the spirit work after the preaching of God’s word. I think that’s really beautiful, really insightful, necessary. And are your thoughts and your experience as you reflect, is that mostly  in the context of public worship or are you also noticing or experiencing in your individual walk or within the families outside of a Sunday corporate context? Or are you’re just thinking mostly about what  the, what would a Sunday service look like in order to allow the Spirit to speak?  

Harold Kim: So thankful you followed up with that question. Uh, absolutely. Both personal and public, personal, individual, and corporate.  I think I’ve been  pretty honest about when my burnout occurred. One of the main reasons of that was I was not practicing personally a functioning prayer life.  I would pray for people. I pray for God to use this program of preaching. But for me to commune with God, to listen to God, that extended  time where you would spend like with your friend or your spouse, I was not having that on a daily basis.

And so to recover that, which takes time, intentionality, energy, discipline. And so as I, God I didn’t recover, just God broke that back into my life. You know, I came to the point of, you know, I don’t think I’m gonna make it. I’m not gonna wanna get up the next morning with a lot of joy and motivation, unless, apart from the spirit of God moving in my life again where I can feel his smile.

So yeah, personal prayer life where I walk with God every single day, for me it does in a mini fashion, feel like a life or death for me that I do that. And then, yes.  Because I’m a pastor in the public setting. In the public setting now. Now to be fair, there’s all kinds of conditions, right? So for CCSA, when we had  multiple worship services shoving back and forth to different locations, we didn’t have the time.

We just didn’t have the time. You know, like we’re on the clock. But, uh, I can’t get that haunting remark of Dr. David Marlo Jones. I think it was in preaching of preachers, where he said one of the greatest obstacles to the worship of God is time, consciousness,  is we put the Holy Spirit on a schedule. You know, we need to make everything 35 minutes or 15 minutes.

And I’m guilty of that as well. But I’m saying in the public setting, in so far as it’s possible,  I think that’s a golden sacred moment. If the word of God has been preached that time for people to respond, to digest, wrestle with that. And to ask the Holy Spirit, holy Spirit,  I really need and want you. 

To speak that word and apply that word. I want you to pierce my heart. I need conviction. I need you to own me with this as I walk out this door. Um, certainly I don’t think that’s gonna, that’s gonna not, that’s not gonna hurt.  I think it’s only gonna help. And as I look back, uh,  you know, carefully I say this, you know, maybe  the, the life change, the extent of it, the number of it, or the depth of life change that I’ve always aching to see, and even salvation conversions,  maybe more that happens as people allow time and space.

To cry out  to God for the Holy Spirit to do something with that word. And, you know, we’re not gonna leave this place until you do something with that work  in my heart, you know. 

Will Chang: That’s really helpful. A lot of what you share, Harold, actually is resonates personally and you know, we both, I’ve gone through transitions, uh, from passing our local churches and it’s right what you’re saying, a lot of times when you have multiple services, your thoughts and your priorities are sort of misplaced.

So you’re looking at the clock, you’re looking at efficiency, making sure that you get the services ending on time so that all the other activities through the Sundays could fall into the schedules of all our, our members. And so you sort of lose the power of the Holy Spirit being able to work the truth of his word into your heart.

So I think a lot of what you’re reflecting makes a lot of sense. Uh, I did wanna follow up sort of related because it is, you mentioned a personal of Oslo, corporate sort of renewal of the spirit.  And I think for pastors we can understand what it means to idolize our churches.  Performance,  attendance, budget, number of staff speaking in invitations.

But for an average lay person just out there listening, a actual lay leader who may not be in vocational ministry, could you share perhaps more thoughts or provide more color in terms of what is that idolatry of ministry look like, uh, for a pastor? Like how does that affect spiritual life? Um, because you’re doing holy things, you’re reading the Bible and praying, but it’s hard for members to understand how can something holy like that be an idol.

Would you be able to maybe elaborate your experience on that or your insights on what that could look like?  

Harold Kim: Well, I told you to follow up, now you’re following up too much with too many good questions. This is gonna go way too long.  Well, in my life, the symptoms are manifold of idolatry. Um, number one. Things can go wrong. Things don’t go the way that you’d wanted. Maybe it doesn’t fit into my timetable of comfort or convenience. Maybe it doesn’t stroke my ego. So let’s say something kind of goes wrong at the church, okay?  If, uh, I’ve been idolizing the, uh, the ministry, not for their sake, not loving other people or loving for the glory of God,  uh, my emotional and physical and psychological response to that is, uh, going to be unhealthy.

That will be disproportionate. Uh, it will be too crushing. It’ll be too overwhelming, and I’m gonna lose sleep over it, which I suffered from, you know, some sleeplessness. Then there’s irritability, right? Then there’s anger, then there’s vengeance, right? There’s all kinds of things under the surface, under the hood that pastors will go through, and I don’t think people can see that because we’re trying to hide that as much as possible. 

But the symptoms of that kind of idolatry will just take its toll. Uh, upon our mental, emotional, physical, as well as our spiritual health. Because again, when,  uh, when I’ve become overly dependent or codependent upon the status of, of status of ministry,  I’m not walking with the Lord. I’m not doing it in the power of Jesus.

I’m not doing it by the part of spirit.  Um, I have, uh, basically there’s no boundaries left, right? There’s no limitations left. I, it’s just, it, it, it’s all encompassing. And so all of it, I think, becomes, uh, too personal. All of it can become too hurtful. Um, all of it can become too stressful and, uh, there’s just a period of time that  you just have to work through a lot of this, but it’ll, it’ll take you out for a season.

You know, if I might say so  for leaders maybe to understand that again, it’s not the physical hours logged into a meeting or program or an agenda that I’m checking off. But I think underneath the hood of when someone really cares, but you over care. Um,  you know, there’s, there’s there treatments to that, there’s consequences to that and, and it takes its toll on the person.

Which is why we have a lot of turnover. Yes. God forbid. Right. The scandals and ruining ourselves. But, you know, we’ve got a lot of transitions, you know, you and I both, and we know that we’re seeking the Lord of this next season, but, um, we’re trying to learn from this as well.  Yeah. There’s many other examples I could give, but yeah.

That’s, hopefully that helps lay leaders or uh, for them to understand. Yeah, it does. A little bit.  

One of, uh, thanks for sharing that. One of a lighthearted question. Have you had the chance or do you plan to go back to CTSC to visit or have you been able to visit the church? 

Harold Kim: Oh man, what a great question. I am wide open and I look forward to the day that I will worship there again. I’m sure I will, to go visit.  Um, they invite me again at any point, you know, it’d be like delirious, like, you know, with tears of joy. Uh, but I think it’s not even been a year. Uh, and I think, you know, there needs to be a lot of good, healthy time and space for everyone involved. Um, I pray for them just like all the time, you know, like the third kid. And, uh, I just get little updates here and there, you know, because, you know, there’s a lot of CCC folks. We still hang out with Fellowship and, and my oldest daughter’s part of their staff, you know, loves on their church. And so I’m connected in that way just a little bit.

And then we follow online, um, you know, when we can as well. But I, I think that data’s coming. Certainly had a grace of God. Yeah. Yeah. 

Will Chang: I think time and space, that seems, that seems right. That seems wise. Sure. And sort of switching gears then, uh, after looking at reflecting on the past, looking forward in terms of where God’s calling you next, walking forward in a step of faith, many of our listeners probably are unaware about what God may be calling you to your next role in ministry.

Uh, why don’t you share with us what, what that is, what that process is like, what excites you about it? What are, what are some prayer requests surrounding all the next stages of where God’s calling you?  

Harold Kim: So back in September, I was on a family vacation. We were in Seoul, South Korea  and through, uh, Dr. Julius Kim, who had spent a year there after his presidency of Gospel Coalition,  thought that he would introduce and connect me with the senior pastor of Onnuri Church in Seoul, South Korea. That is EJ or Hun Lee. Reverend Jay Lee. It was a last minute thing, and that’s a clearly a God thing. I was reluctant to get out of bed ’cause it was 8:00 AM I’m on vacation,  uh, reading a newspaper, just chilling.

And I just thought, man, you know, do I really need to go? And it was super hot outside, but it was actually my wife that pushed me out the door. Mm-hmm. She said, you know, don’t be an idiot. You, you have to go and you need to go and fellowship and connect and learn from, you know, hopefully learn from someone like that.

So  I went out and, uh, that turned into this, just  unbeknownst to me, a, a, a calling, an invite from  Hun Lee to come and serve at that church as an international ministries director. I stayed through the weekend and was able to worship and preach there, the green service. And that was an overwhelming,  I feel like Holy Spirit filling experience.

Uh, was able to attend Lausanne, which, uh, only hosted. So, you know, I was able to watch up close their worship as well as them hosting that global Missions conference. So after I received the call. Prayed over it every single day, asked both of my daughters and my wife, I will not go Dad and your husband obviously can’t go without you.

Sonny and  Dad will not go without some sort of blessing and some acceptance of it. And after two months, we went back out on a vision trip and make that long story short, the vision trip,  God made it clear, made it powerfully clear to my wife and I. This is our next season of calling, so I’m flying out April 8th, God willing, uh, one way ticket.

My wife and I, we’re empty nesting now, and I’ll go and serve as an international ministry director of, uh, owner church. The two locations, uh, one is in Yang J that’s near Kna, the other one they’re based, their original home base is Anderson, that’s just north of the river. Mm-hmm.  Uh, will, I am thrilled. Uh,  I I,  I’m an emotional, can be impetuous human being.

So with this calling.  I wanted to test it. Uh, I wanted to make sure that my family came around full circle  and now what, it’s been about five or six months. Um,  the fire that was lit when I first received this call,  uh, is  I wanted to test, is this really from you? Oh Lord, or not?  And I think the fire has, uh, you know, gotten little bits of ups and downs, but I think recently only been, uh, more confirmed and, and, and increased, uh, in its, in its force. 

The thing that I’m most excited about will, uh, and it’s a privilege, is  there are 2 million international travelers that pass through Seoul every year. That’s the stat I heard. Mm-hmm. And given that the marriage and birth rate are at an all time low,  they’re Korean economy and for their welfare into the future, they’re gonna be more dependent, uh, on migrant and international workers  coming into Seoul. 

For such a time as this. And also looking around the landscape, I have dear faithful, great friends who are in English churches, in English ministries, but by all accounts, they told me they need a lot more. They need a lot more. And I think with  Nu these kinds of, uh, history and resources and platform, um, given this opportunity,  man, the opportunity to preach and model and share the gospel, I think it’s vast.

I think it’s become a whole new mission field. And I think the whole world, all the nations have gathered into Seoul. Also, there’s a whole theology of the city that Keller and city to city is famous for. You guys could go check that out. Or if you move into city, you’re traveling,  I think spiritually you’re gonna be more prone to see, it’s gonna push you to the pole of extremes.

It’s gonna actually expose your true idols or true values and true loves in life. And, uh, I know that, I recall when I was traveling, as you know, we go to college student.  When you feel a little bit uncomfortable and you’re not at home,  you’re a lot more open and, and curious and  soul on top of that is a magnificent city.

It is a global mega city  for all of our corruptions and faults and for all of our beauty and tech and advances, you know, the miracles of South Korea.  I think all of that combined, uh, I really can’t describe to you.  I sense and I could taste  how much need there is for the gospel  to be preached in English and to be modeled,  uh, for all the people who are passing through soul or maybe live there.

I understand it’s a very transient community, but, um,  yeah, that’s my first passion and my wife and I, and my family. And as we share prayer requests,  we just feel this is our little contribution. God has called us.  This is our contribution to fulfill the great commission.  And, uh, in a funny way, I feel like I’m gonna go back to my people, learn from my people to better reach all people.

Uh, the other thing about Seoul is just, it’s just location, location, location, location. It’s a gateway for all of Asia.  It’s become so hip, you know, all the post BTS effect, you might say, the cosmetics, entertainment, the drama. And even in these ways, the, the intrigue, kind of the hype that surrounded k-pop culture and all these other things.

You know, I’ve been galvanized to think about and pray about God, would you, would you use that? Would you use me in that part of your plan? Or people are coming from maybe all these other kinds of ulterior motives or lesions, but maybe there they could be struck by a clear, robust, but holy Spirit-filled gospel. 

So that’s number one that I’m just, uh, I, I just can’t believe we, I’m gonna get to do it. Okay. Uh, and second, I think I mentioned it.  I think I would be humbled in stretch. I’m gonna learn a lot and grow a lot from a Mother Korean church. I mm-hmm.  I get a little scared at times, but I think I have a lot to learn in terms of my own personal disciplines, in terms of my sanctification,  in terms of my growth and prayer, life and passion  I feel in over my head.

If I were to think about the spirituality of ri  yeah. I am gonna go in as a, as a pupil, feel like I’m just starting from square one  and, uh, Lord, you know, teach me,  let me learn, let me grow.  Mm-hmm. Uh, in terms of my Korean heritage, you know, how, how did those revivals mm-hmm.  You know, burst in the 19 hundreds.

Why has the Korean church grown and sent out so many missionaries, albeit in decline now? Yes. But,  um, these are some things, precious things that I think I wanna. Recover,  uh, and be able to put into practice. Mm-hmm. And the last but not least, soul is, uh,  thank God for Taylor and Elizabeth. 

They’re gonna wrestle with it, that they’re losing mom. They’re just sad. They’re losing mom. They don’t care about her. Yeah. I think, I think an issue they just said, it’s just an issue, said, dad, you just go. You just go.  I said, that’s really not a good idea. That is not gonna go there by himself. He absolutely must be with Sonny or else my whole life is gonna fall apart.

Uh,  but because we have entrusted our goals to the Lord,  by the sheer grace of God, Sonny and I have the opportunity,  the energies,  less distractions. We’re gonna be all alone over there.  I think we can pour ourselves out into becoming spiritual fathers and mothers. Yeah.  I think this might be a little bit on the charismatic end, but  I can’t tell you how many. 

Dreams or impressions or images  and motives, as well as some other people confirming that, who are a little bit more charismatic, leaning  of, uh, we are really called to go there to spiritually repair it the next generation.  And I know that’s gonna take a lot. It’s not just preaching the gospel, it’s the repair generations  from all of our broken homes, from all of our families of origins, from all of the ways that we’ve been. 

And how do we form and create and cultivate, you know, the whole new family of God.  Um, but yeah, I’m gonna need a lot of prayers. I mean, I hope this interview, it, it don’t take away anything else but this,  I desperately covet all your prayers. Anyone who listens to this,  just pray the gospel goes forward in Seoul,  please.

Pray that the gospel would be boldly, humbly clearly preached and modeled not just through me, but through dear faithful workers who are in Seoul, Korea right now. It is so in need of revival,  but I think about the millions of people who are passing through  lost, going to Seoul for a lot of its, uh,  surface, uh, attractions and incentives. 

But I, I, I really, really feel in sense and can taste,  uh,  I think God wants to, what God wants to meet us there.  Uh, so yeah, we wanna spiritually reparent, uh, whatever that looks like. And, um,  I think that’s one of the reasons we’re called, you know, we’re old and we’re empty nesting. Mm-hmm. So only thought that, you know, they can actually come and move out here.

They’re the only ones who can actually come and move out here. So we said yes. He said yes.  

You know, by the way, it’s a little bit of a uncanny timing. Uh, I think the day that.  I said yes, officially over Zoom to Reverend hun Lee. That was the very night that martial law was declared. 

The first thought was, yeah, am I, am I Jonah? Like, Harold, maybe you should really seriously consider, are you Jonah? I know that sounds, uh, crazy and narcissistic, but uh, the other hand I, I’ve been  praying and trying to process, there’s so much to learn. Like, yeah, Lord, what does it mean for such a time as this? 

Uh, I know that’s Korean politics. I know that’s Korean government. I know that’s the Korean economy that’s suffering. However, you know, what does that mean for the international English speaking crowd?  Uh, in this moment of time, you know, in this period, in this location. Yeah. 

Will Chang: Definitely, Harold, as you said, you shared, seems like there is such a time as this, the way the Lord has orchestrated or calling back to Korea Gospel re-parenting.  Global mission, strategic location, geography, just the vibrancy of seo.  What’s also interesting and wonder if you have some thoughts or reflections, is that thinking about the Korean American church and your particular journey,  lot of us to over generalize in the Korean American circles.

We start out in KMEM, we struggle, we fight, we don’t like it, we curse it. Even the goal is to become independent, which you led CPC at that time when you particularized cc  sc and one of the first churches to do this, and now it’s almost as if you’re coming full circle.  As you said, you want to be a pupil, you want to learn.

There’s things that maybe you wanted to reflect upon about the spiritual vibrancy of our family origins in the church. Do you have another thoughts about that? Do you have, it’s almost like if you’re going through another cycle of this, but you’re more mature, you’re more refined, more seasoned, you’re an empty nester. 

What are your thoughts about that? Are you,  are you seeing things in the Korean immigrant church, the value of that, that you sort of missed the first time around that’s pulling you back in? Or how do you, how do you think about going back into that context with an open heart and the humility to learn and to to partner with them? 

Harold Kim: Wasn’t prepared for that one Will, but, uh, man, I think that’s a  crucial question and love to answer as best as I can at this point.  Uh, my experience with first generation Korean pastors, for the most part  has been.  Really good. I, I don’t know how or why,  uh, I don’t think I really ever hit a point in my life where I said, good riddance.

Just throw it all away. I’m gonna run away from it as far as I can.  Uh, I think there was just too much reverence there. Uh, there was too much impact. There was too much truth,  there was too much passion that had been passed down. And, uh, I’m indebted to every Korean first generation 1.5 pastor that I’ve worked with.

I, I’m still trying to learn from them, but as you say, I think this is going now further. Um, I’m not walking back into km I’m, I’m walking into  one of the flagship, like iconic Korean churches. Mm-hmm. Who’s against stature and scale is, uh, gonna be a little bit head spinning, uh, for me.  Uh, but more than that, it’s their, it’s their spiritual vitality.

It’s just they’re all out passionate commitments. I think your question is, you know, maybe what are some of the things that I’m learning or maybe, you know, looking forward to learning right as Korean American?  Hmm.  Let’s start with one example.  I think  when someone says, why do we all cry out the name of Jesus?

And in Korea? That’s in Korea, it’s, although I’ve had good relationships, as my daughters would say, I found that cringey,  I found it unsophisticated.  I used to think that was, uh,  basically almost legalistic and enforced. Mm-hmm. What’s wrong with these people? What are you doing here? Screaming and crying out  the name of Jesus?  Uh, like recently just I think posted about this.

I’ve come full circle on that.  Because what I came to realize was  because I went to a football game on Sunday afternoon. As a gift  my Washington commanders got, it’s completely decimated by the Philadelphia Eagles and Philadelphia Eagles do live up to their reputation. I will just say that as fans anyhow,  when you go to a football game or a concert and anything that you love or passionate about,  no one has any issue of losing their voice. 

We cry and scream. Our heads off  passion is manifested and expressed  coming back full circle to crying out and screaming the name of Jesus. Okay.  John Calvin says it in his institutes of Christian religion. The reason why we’re called to sing songs in the public worship of God is because God wants to stir our naturally  stone cold hearts.

God wants to recapture our wandering hearts and he wants to stir and fuel. Rightful Godly affection. That’s why we sing. We sing songs. In fact, you should sing them passionately. We should sing them. Not part, not just participate, but we should sing it from the heart, even if our hearts don’t feel like it.

Because that’s exactly why we should sing that song. Right? Yeah. I should pray exactly the times when I don’t feel like praying.  So how much more so in Korean expressions or Korean cultures,  is it bad to cry out of all things? The name of Jesus is that Unbiblical.  But I have found it now, starting at the beginning of this year ’cause uh, that Korean church and then another church we sing here in New Jersey,  I’ve been, I’ve been, I’ve been wrecked. I’ve been undone  because I just said here, why? Why don’t you do that?  Why do you do that?  And as I screamed and cried out for the name of Jesus.  I think my heart  was resuscitated  and came back to life and started to pump with new passion and blood once again, my heart was able to catch up  back again to what my brain says and knows about Jesus.

That I am desperate for Savior.  He is worthy, he is God alone. And as that him said, it’s wash me Savior or I die.  And in public worship services, how often do we facilitate and allow people to express and manifest that  physically in our voices with our emotions? Why wouldn’t we? Why wouldn’t we want to do that?

Why wouldn’t I wanna be in a public worship, we service of God, and be able to fully vocalize and express, and even if my heart hasn’t caught up yet,  the attitude of Jesus, if you don’t save and wash me here right now,  I die.  We all say theologically. Amen. We know this is true. Mm-hmm. Jesus saves me not just years ago.

That’s converted. He saves me today in every single moment that I live and breathe.  How about we do that in public worship as well together? You know, and then another caveat on this,  after early morning prayer, pastor Brian, the Presider just says, you know, anyone who needs prayer just come on forward and kneel on the ground and pray  a little bit of, a little bit of a jab, right?

To our Korean American folks. Right?  It’s hard to get them on Sunday worship service. Right? Just a show about Sunday worship services on time, right? And consistently. Yeah. As an idolization, that’s a tsunami. That is it.  And my heart worries about that.  That’s a tsunami. That is it. Sunday, you know, we used to say, Hey, don’t just be a Sunday Christian. 

Now I say, no, please be a Sunday Christian. At least be a Sunday Christian. But we’re talking like 5:00 AM 6:00 AM on Friday and Saturday at Bethel Green Church. And he invite, you know, it’s packed out. It’s like field their dreams. There’s traffic, there’s traffic coming into the parking lot at 5:00 AM ’cause they wanna get there on time.

And you know, I’m just sitting there as a great American pastor just looking at us. Says, okay, what am I missing? What have I been missing? What have I not done as a pastor to lead and push and model this? I haven’t modeled it. I just haven’t modeled.  But anyhow, so when they’re calling for the, you know, like altar call,  well  that whole stage is packed.

It’s like rushed. Wow. By 60, 70, 50-year-old men and women  who I know  have probably been way more disciplined and spiritual than I have been.  They’ve been walking with the Lord, probably no more scripture than I am. And I’m watching droves of people on their knees.  Weeping. Tears in need for prayer, A need.

Jesus.. And I said, look at that. And I’m reminded by that again.  Why wouldn’t we want to, in our physical posture,  in our tone, in our vocalization, in everything we can do in the worship service of God, express the reality,  the absolute spirituality. I am doomed in dead as a sinner apart from a savior Christ Jesus.

And without his touch and grace and mercy. Not one time, not yesterday, but in fresh supply. Today, today, tomorrow, every moment I need to walk with him,  uh, I find it. Now  I find it.  I’ve come back home.  Mm-hmm. Spiritually, I’ve come back home because I grew up with this.  I did practice it in different seasons of my life.

Yeah. I do recall it when I was probably the most broken and fervent  and most humble. And this did happen during my burnout too, during that season. It’s hard to keep it upright, but I think that’s where the community and the public, uh, worship life helps. Mm-hmm. It encourages us to do it,  um, altogether. So I,  I’m all for Cheerio now.

I’m all for Jesus.  I’m gonna do it.  I’m gonna do that now. So next time you guys all come around, if you come visit only church in Korea,  don’t freak out. Don’t think like, oh, Matt Harold’s gone off on the deep end.  He’s got off on this, uh, ultra charismatic  expression now. All our charismatic friends have  so much that I need to, we need to, uh,  adopt and balance out together.

Yeah. Word and spirit, right? Worded spirit and church. Yeah. Yeah.  

Will Chang: Those are very helpful. Those are really good thoughts. Harold. I think it’s.  To balance word and spirit, just to balance sort of the head. That sort of Presbyterian reform circles emphasizes very well, but sometimes not as much as the spirit filled worship of a, a corporate gathering and to just express our need for a heavenly father.

Harold Kim: And so I think it’s sort Well, I I’m gonna keep going. Thank you. You just provoked such a great thought.  What I was going through,  massive, um, depression burnout that’s mingled with anxiety and fear in the beginning when I was praying. Right. Lord, just take it away. Just take it away. Okay.  And I pray like one minute. Pray a couple minutes. If you even pray five minutes. You haven’t prayed in a long time. Five minutes. Feels like forever. Yeah, it does. It’s like,  well, no phone, no sports, not like oh five minutes.  Um.  Well, there’s just too many stories in the Bible that I just have not practiced the persistent woman who basically forced the judge to agree with her.

Right. She was so persistent. She was like so irritating and annoying that the judge had to give her her way.  And I look at that and said, have, you’ve basically almost never done that in your life. Right? You scoff at that. However, Jesus is making the point, how much more gracious and how much more compassionate, how much more loving is my heavenly Father?

And, um, my whole point is that depression, anxiety, fear. I’m not saying it’s a one time fix, right. But  why don’t I sit and agonize and pray  literally until  I feel some movement,  some kind of alleviation,  some healing, some refreshing, some relief.  Do I sit and pray until I feel that usually I haven’t?  

Then that begs the question, why not Harold, why didn’t you sit and wait until pray, until you felt that,  oh, ’cause that’s, that’s emotional. That’s subjectivism.  No, the reason I’m praying in the first place is ’cause I feel certain things.  Now I’m praying, God, I need these feelings to subside in some sense. I need them to just decrease so that you, you would increase my confidence and trust in you. 

Um, so yeah, just some of the things I’m  recovering this in the new year and I wanna put into public practice  and not just personal.  

Will Chang: Yeah. I mean there’s a, a lot of insights that you’re bringing generationally. Um, things that probably you and I had talked about like offline. Yes. Our, our family like heritage, uh, spiritual fathers and mothers before coming through a much more survival mentality, going through, in some ways more external hardship than maybe second, third generation in America.

We, by.  Kind of coattail riding on our spiritual parents have a lot to be thankful, a lot more. We have more wealth, we have more opportunities. We are engaged in the culture a little bit differently, that they actually kind of chokes out the need for us to turn to God with this sort of tenacity that you’re talking about and to kind of be reminded of that from, uh, the first generation is something that is a good word.

And then very wise. And so I think that’s really helpful for you to kind of share your experiences about that. Um, I wanted to switch topics a little bit still under the idea of like transition. So we talked a lot about this exciting transition, uh, for your next calling and role, but that also means there’s some transitions with the Sola network and you have been faithfully preaching and teaching a leader the face, the president of Sola, and you’ll soon transition out of that role and wanted to talk about with you your thoughts and reflections about Sola as this.

Broader Pan-Asian ministry. What are your,  I guess your, what are your thoughts and experiences? What is the unique role or place for a ministry like SOLA? And later on, if you have some thoughts about how has SOLA for you personally been a blessing? And hopefully it was a blessing and not just a drain, but assuming it’s a deep blessing.

So what is SOLA’s unique role and place in the kingdom? What have you seen? What’s its in importance, its role, and how have you been blessed personally by your involvement with this ministry?  

Harold Kim: Yeah. I I, it began, what, 12, 13 years ago?  I’m not sure on that timetable. It really started out as just the fledgling college conference. Some pastors got together. I was not at that initial meeting and said, you we’re gonna do something much better together. Why don’t we pull our resources, pull our numbers together, and really reach college students across la You know, we’re not about local church territories or names. Let’s do it under the banner of Sola.

And, and what began like that in terms of its vision and ministry impact, and now especially online, has just far outgrown and exceeded anything I could have ever thought of.  Uh, maybe Steve Chang did. ’cause you know, he’s Yoda and he’s the real brain and engineer. Yeah. Uh, he might have, but for me, I’ve come along and I think with my gift things and my passions, you, I come along to, you know, show up and, and be able to preach and speak where I can and. 

So, you know, its vision and ministry impact has just exponentially grown. Okay. To a point that I could not imagine. And then of course it’s the relationships, uh, you know, will you and the council now the council has gone national, more Pan-Asian.  Um, what I value about our times online and at the retreats that we’ve had, we take things for granted.

Now that I’m about to fly overseas, I think I’m gonna just ache. There might be a day where I’m just so depressed thinking about what we used to, what I used to have. It’s been an anchor, a consistent anchor of fellowship, of honesty, vulnerability, sharpening as well on, you know, as well as, uh, prayers for, uh, real fervent prayers for one another. 

And I would add a little note, there’s something different because the council was composed of pastors.  Pastors were practicing gospel ministry.  When you’re a lead pastor, I think the level of understanding and empathy and nuances and struggles is just all the, all the more richer and deeper. And so I’ve really enjoyed that.

And, um, yeah, in terms of my transition, no, I, I thought I was completely done. Uh, not in good riddance. I just feel like I have not, I, I really have not say, I just don’t think I’ve,  I don’t know what value contributions I’ve brought apart from the conferences and the relationships that I’ve enjoyed. Uh, but, you know, I’m thankful to you or the trustee along with the new president, Steve Chang as I’ve transitioned out.

Yeah. The fact that you would wanna continue in any, any kind of partnership. Uh, while I’m overseas, I’m thrilled. Uh, I’m, I’m proud to be a part of SOLA . And if there’s anything on the international development or I guess recruitment end or promotion end.  I’m privileged to do so, uh, as you guys asked me to do that.

And so, yeah. I feel honored, you know, thank you for just loving on me,  uh, and, and wanting to continue some kind of relationship and, and ministry partnership from overseas. And I’ll see what I can do, you know, but,  you know, gimme a little time and space. I might be drowning over there and I might not even be able to come up for water.

And come up for air, I’m saying. So, uh,  yeah,  I think that’s, yeah. A little bit of my transition and yeah. The, the vitality of what, what SOLA network has become  is a sacred space for Asian American Christians and Asian American leaders and ministers. I think it’s a sacred space. It is unique.

It is absolutely needed and vital, um,  where we can, we’re wrestling now of  not only how to understand the gospel from into an Asian American audience. Not only I would understand it,  but to, uh,  apply mm-hmm.  And be shaped  and live out  this  gospel, this, this, this bible life worldview  in the Asian American story and into  the just exploding Asian American population.

Not in America, but just, you know, Asians all over the world.  Uh, what does it look like, right. For Jesus to be walking in my shoes, for him to live in me and I’ve died and be crucified with him. What does that look like for an Asian American to live out the fullness and the beauty of Jesus Christ without ever having to feel like you need to be more of anything else.

And um, of course, I’m just scratching the surface there, but I think that’s a sacred space and I think, I think SOLA Network is doing it like  no other, as far as I can understand, led by and for Asian Americans. Oh, yeah. And we’re, and.  You know, well, we’ve been in a lot of these, these discussions. Um,  completely unapologetic about it now.

We were like dancing tiptoeing about this, and I’m a Asian American people. And now we’re like, uh, no, no. This is who we are.  That doesn’t mean this is who we wanna stay. We don’t wanna stay who we are, but this is who we are. So we gotta begin there. This is who we are. And I feel like we haven’t even done spiritual reparenting, discipleship enough yet with the gospel that  really reinterprets all of our Asian American stories into the framework of the Bible. Because we’ve usually only heard it from another framework or lens. 

Will Chang: Oh, har, that’s so good. I mean, I, everything you said so well, I completely agree and resonate with, I think even serving on the council, it is a very safe.  And sacred space. I mean the vulnerability bar retreats and just having a place where there are other Asian American lead pastors sharing about the challenges and struggles of of ministry has been life giving.

But also more broadly as SOLA continues to grow, I think you’re at right. Just being able to learn from other Asian pastors who are non Koreans and non Presbyterian and to value what they bring, to learn from them, their perspectives, their ministry. To have this unique voice I think absolutely was crucial.

Because it does feel that we were tiptoeing early on and how do we navigate these sort of racial ethnic lines. But now it’s just full freedom to fully embrace like our God-given calling in this unique space as Asian American leaders and pastors. And so I think so will be. Instrumental to that. And Harold, you are absolutely instrumental to that.

And although you’re transitioning out from the official title president, there is no way that we are just going to let you go. And so at some point, we as SOLA will definitely want to keep, uh, a partnership with you, formal, informal. I think just your giftedness and fellowship and your strategic location in Seoul, I think will be tremendous for this Gospel Kingdom work as we begin to think globally.

And so we’re always thankful for what you have done and for what you’ll continue to do for us. Um, Harold, as we come to close, I guess just for sake of time,  want to thank you for all that you shared. Thank you for your heart and vulnerability,  all that you share so passionately and so winsomely. Um, maybe we could end our time here together just on any reflections or thoughts that you have  for people who are ministry, uh, pastors.

Leaders doesn’t have just b. It could be male, female, just a different ministry context. What are some words of encouragement that you wanna offer as we come to close with our time here today?  

Harold Kim: Yeah, before I offer that, thank you Will, um,  thank you for saying such encouraging things and along with all the council, all the trustees, and anyone sitting in,  uh, you know, to feel like  you can fully belong. 

To feel like you could be fully yourself. Yeah. And then to be fully loved.  That’s what changes you  and that’s what SOLA has been. And I’m just so thankful that  I get to be a part of it, you know, in any ways that you guys may see fit. So thank you for that.  Yeah. You know, final reflections, you know, those are always hard, but, you know, I think one  pressing growing theme in my life is,  you know, revelation where Jesus charges one church, you know, repent and recover your first love. 

And the tragedy of me falling out of love if I have fallen out of love.  And if we don’t recover our first love for Jesus, right,  it means it’s because I’ve fallen in love with something else.  It’s always the case.  The reason Jesus is not my first love is because something or someone else has taken that position  and every other first love  could be ministry.

It could be your wife, it could be your kids, could be your health, could be your reputation, could be your status,  could be how much people like you. Um, you go down the list.  They not only fail to fulfill you,  uh,  it will crush you and they will beat you. They’re the cruelest, slave, masters on the planet. The worst of all is myself.

I, I just love myself, is the worst slave master we could ever follow. So I think that is, again, coming from and steeped in and just loving my reformed  tradition and emphasis on the word, uh, which is central. I, I’m not saying it’s not central,  the riches of the gospel and people need to be taught and reasoned and persuaded and challenged, confronted up here, yes, we must reach people’s brains,  but having been steeped and lived in this for quite some time,  we cannot fail also to aim  and aim all out for the heart. 

And we’re called to love the Lord our gods with all our minds, all our souls and all our hearts, all of our entire being.  Um.  Funneled, like marshaled altogether. Love the Lord of God with everything that God.  So yeah, I think my final word would be repent and recover your first love. Know what? The love will love you back like Jesus can. 

And so let’s do everything possible to,  uh, ignite fuel, recover, keep, and increase. Increase  a fervent love, a fervent first love for Jesus Christ.  And then I think everything else follows. Mm-hmm.  I think it’s very simple that you’re in love.  Very complicated in our heart  when we fall out of love. Yeah. This is more than an emotional thing.

I’m not just talking about an emotional thing. Of course we all fall out of love,  but there are disciplines and responsibilities and community and so many truths there. It’s guardrails that will help us to recover and get back into.  A fervency of that first love and  yeah, that’d be my prayer. Prayer for soul.

Prayer for soul. Soul, uh,  um,  yeah. You watch anyone madly fall in love with Jesus. Mm-hmm.  E everything else just follows as did the churches..   

Will Chang: Let’s a,  a much needed and probably the perfect word to end our time here, and I think it’s so true that all of us at different seasons and points in life and ministry need to come back to our first love, like you mentioned in the book of Revelation.

I think appreciate that word. I think it’s needed and it is life giving. And Harold, as we continue these transitions, and for our listeners out there who are watching and listening into this interview, uh, just know that our prayers are with you and your family with Sunny and Terry.  And we don’t view this as a goodbye, but really just a different kind of partnership where hand in hand, spiritually we’ll look forward to the kingdom and the goal and the great commission that our Lord Savior has given to us.

And it’ll take on a wonderfully new expression globally now even. And I’m excited for that as we continue to pray for you and your family. So thanks so much for this time. Thanks to all those who are. Listening in on this and watching this interview, we are praying for you as well. So pray for our, our ministry and stay tuned for there’s much more to come for SOLA Ministries and SOLA network.

So thanks so much and talk to you soon.