Aaron Lee, SOLA’s Editorial Curator, sat down with Daniel K. Eng and Jordan Ryan about a new book from InterVarsity Press. The following is their conversation diving into The New Testament in Color.
Aaron Lee: Hi everyone. This is Aaron for SOLA Network, and I am here today to talk about IVP’s—InterVarsity Press’s—new book. It’s The New Testament in Color, and today I have contributors here, Daniel K. Eng and Jordan Ryan, would you guys please introduce yourself really quickly, and also what your part in the book was? Jordan, can you go first?
Jordan Ryan: Sure, yeah. So I’m Jordan Ryan. I’m associate professor of New Testament at Wheaton College. I teach all kinds of things here. I teach archeology courses as well as New Testament courses. Yeah, and I contributed the commentary on acts from a Filipino American perspective.
Daniel K. Eng: Hi everyone. My name is Daniel. I teach New Testament and hermeneutics at Western Seminary in Portland, Oregon. I contributed the commentary on James, and I wrote from my Chinese American perspective.
Aaron Lee: I’m really glad that I got the opportunity to speak with you guys. This book is massive. It’s huge. So many contributors, and I’m proud to say that you guys were contributing for the Asian American perspective. What is your history exactly with Bible interpretation, and when did you exactly see the New Testament in color? Jordan, you can go first, and maybe you can talk about what exactly—how you see the New Testament in color?
Jordan Ryan: Yeah. Yeah. So this is kind of complicated. I’m mixed. My father is white Canadian. My mother is Filipino Canadian. So I’m actually originally from Toronto. My dad for many years, actually, for most of his life, he just retired, I think maybe retired kind of, from working with the unhoused population in the city. He’d done that for over 40 years, and my experience with biblical interpretation really started growing up in a church that he had founded for unhoused people. And what that meant was a lot of the interpretation and kind of Bible studies that those folks were doing in that community was already kind of really grounded in their own context, in their own world. They were looking at, you know, they’d read the Gospels, and they’d see all the things that Jesus has to say about the poor, and understand that in some way, that that was for them, and it was about them. And so that’s kind of where that came from.
Being mixed took a lot longer for me, I think, to be able to—first, there’s a thing that happens, I think, with a lot of mixed Asians, where it takes a long time for us to wrestle with our cultural identities and be able to feel like we have the right to claim who we are. And for me, that really happened in my university years. I went to the University of Toronto, and at that time, I ended up having a lot of friends who were kind of other kinds of Asian, all coming from very different backgrounds, international, but most were Asian Canadian. And I ended up in, of all things, the Korean Christian Fellowship, along with the woman who was to become my wife, who is Singaporean Canadian. So the two of us were in the Korean Christian Fellowship. My wife was actually in the leadership team, and it was sort of in that community which had all sorts of other Asian Canadians. We were doing biblical interpretation. I was actually studying the Bible, as you know, a major. I was a religion major, but the way that we were reading the Bible at the Korean Christian fellowship was really different, both from how we’d read in church and also from how we read in my classes. And I realized a lot of it had to do with the fact that we were reading out of like, grappling with our identities, things that now I kind of recognize as being that betwixt, in between, stuff that a lot of us experience, not being Canadian enough, not being Asian enough, and sort of applying things to the world around us. So I think that was really the first time. It was when I was about 19years old, and in Korean Christian Fellowship.
Aaron Lee: Yeah, Jordan. I mean, your history is obviously very, very broad here. I can’t even from your name, Jordan Ryan. It would have been hard for me to pinpoint exactly your ethnicity. Thanks for sharing on that. Yeah. Daniel, you want to go ahead?
Daniel K. Eng: My story is a lot like Jordan’s where when I was in college, that was actually when I started encountering Bible study material and speakers who were talking about, “Hey, what is it? You know, let’s look at the Bible. What does this mean to someone who’s Asian American?” And that was actually really formative for me. And I started thinking about, you know, how I am, and you know, the experiences I’ve had, and how that impacts the way I see the Bible, but also how I receive the Bible as well. And so when I went to seminary, I took a class on the Asian American church, and with Ben Shin, who is not a stranger to the SOLA Network. I also ended up, later on, doing a doctorate in Asian American ministry, a D.Min in Asian American ministry. And we talked a lot about these things where, you know, what does it mean to be Asian and what does it mean to be Asian American? What are the experiences that come with that? And then how does that impact the way we see the Bible, but also the way that we receive the Bible in messages? And so, this comes out of a lot of that thinking, and I’ve been thinking more and more about this as a Bible scholar now. And so it’s been really good for me to think through these categories. A lot of the things that we read are written from the perspective of the majority culture, and there’s nothing wrong with that, but that’s what we have most of and so what we want is to be able to say, hey, what does this look like when an Asian American reads this, like, “what stands out to me?” and “what resonates with me?”
Aaron Lee: I think in the book, it was Esau McCaulley that said that the book is championing socially local interpretation, or socially located interpretation. And so I guess that was the hermeneutic that you guys wanted to go into when you were looking at your commentaries. What do you think are the dangers, but also the strengths, of this type of interpretation? Is it wrong for me to say it’s a type of interpretation? Jordan, maybe you can speak to that.
Jordan Ryan: Yeah. I mean socially located interpretation. I think the reality is that we are all in some way interpreting out of a social location, whether we recognize it or not. I think that’s something that a lot of us who do this kind of work tend to think. I think it is really true once you start—if you start looking at majority culture commentaries, it’s clear that there are issues and ideas and reasons why they’re saying what they’re saying, but they’re not always explicit, and I think often that’s hidden. Sometimes I like to say that socially located biblical interpretation is bringing to light the things that are actually already there.
But yeah, I mean as as far as as dangers and strengths go, I would say, I mean, one of the challenges I think of interpreting this way and something that I’ve tried to avoid, but I know can happen sometimes, is, at times there is, I think, a danger of essentializing our experiences and of sort of trying to guess what, like, what the average Filipino, American person would think about something. But that’s not really what we’re doing. It’s also not really about taking my experiences and trying to assume that all Filipinos or Asian Americans have had the same experiences. I think that that’s a real danger. So what I actually try to do to curb that a little bit is rely on a lot of ethnography, cultural anthropology, and sociology about Filipino Americans, Filipino American studies, and things like that. And I hope that that just helps a little bit to check me, and you know, place some balances on my opinions about my own community.
I think the strength is that it really speaks. It brings to light voices that haven’t been heard. And you know, coming from my own community of Filipino Americans, we’re the third largest Asian American community. We’re also by far the most statistically Christian, and I would say I think we’re the most underrepresented Asian American community in biblical studies. There’s very, very few of us. And what that means, if you take all that into consideration, together, what it means is that somebody else is doing biblical interpretation for us, and someone else is even doing Asian American biblical interpretation for us. It’s always coming from someone else. And so the strength for this is that, you know, I’m able to actually speak to things that are specific to our community and approach issues biblically, things that I think really matter to my people, and understand how we can speak to them biblically and in a way that’s really grounded in faith and in practice. So yeah, I think that’s probably my take on it.
Aaron Lee: Go ahead, Daniel.
Daniel K. Eng: Daniel D. Lee wrote a book called Doing Asian American Theology, and in the beginning of the book, he actually gives a really good illustration for what we’re talking about. And his hobby is backpacking. And he talks about how when you have a compass, when you’re backpacking, the compass points to magnetic north. It’s actually not pointing to true north. And he says, all of us, well, wherever we’re standing, we have a magnetic north, just like wherever you’re standing on the globe, there’s a magnetic north. And so our magnetic north—it’s kind of inside of us, because of our experiences, brings us farther or closer, closer or farther away to true north. And so in the same way, the Bible, a biblical text, has one meaning, it’s what the author intended. And the lenses by which we see things can bring us farther away, can bring us closer to that one meaning. And so you’re asking about strengths and weaknesses. That’s both a strength and a weakness. I mean, for better or for worse, the way that we see the world, the experiences that we have, our culture, things like that, brings us closer or farther away. And so I think that we need to be aware of those things as we move along. Lee talks about the declination which is what a backpacker needs. He needs to know the difference between magnetic and true north. And so for us, we need to know that. We know we need to know ourselves, and we need to know what might bring us closer to a biblical text or farther away.
Aaron Lee: I think that for both of you guys, you guys were able to bring a lot of yourself to the interpretation. But then Jordan, like you said, you don’t want to speak on behalf of every single Filipino American, and so I want to ask you, was it difficult to flesh out your interpretations for this book? You know, was it hard for you to put into words exactly? And then also, were there any standout passages where you’re like, “Yes, this is very clearly, like, I can speak to this”?
Jordan Lee: Yeah, so this was, like, an interesting challenge for me in a lot of ways. Because, okay, so here’s the thing, there isn’t really a robust academic tradition of Filipino American biblical interpretation that sort of predates the stuff that I published about it. There’s a really strong tradition of biblical interpretation in the Philippines. So the Asia Bible Commentary series, like half of those books are written by Filipinos. But the thing is, is that the things that they’re dealing with in the Philippines are just like, frankly, they’re different. Widespread poverty, for example, is a massive issue in the Philippines. They’re living in still like a postcolonial like, literally postcolonial nation. The U.S. is just a totally different context. And so what it meant was that I had to really think about what it actually meant to read the Bible as a Filipino American, and not just sort of for myself, but like for and from my community. And what that meant, is I had to learn the history of my people in order to do this, and that comes out in the introduction to my commentary in particular. There’s a lot about our history, why we are the way we are, why our community is maybe a little bit different from some Asian American communities. And the result, I think, was that once I really understood our history, once I understood some of the sociology and ethnography of our church communities—and also the other piece of it was I actually stopped going to the church I was going to for other reasons. I was going to kind of a broadly Asian American church, and my wife and I, for completely different reasons, ended up attending a Filipino American church in the city, and all of a sudden, like, we were reading the Bible together with the people that I was writing, kind of for and from, and things just started to make sense. So as a result, like, I think that the commentary, once I started writing, once I got beyond, like, what does it mean to write in this way, it all came together. And it was actually the most freeing experience I’ve ever had. I felt like for the first time, I was reading things in the way, like in my own skin, that I was reading the Bible for who God made me to be. Acts came to life. Acts is actually not a book that I chose. They asked me to write it, and I was a little bit reticent to do it. I’ve never written on Acts. It’s long. Like, I’m a Jesus guy. I write on the Gospels. Paul’s a whole other thing. But all of a sudden I just, you know, found myself really resonating with what I was doing and like, it just came together.
I think, if there’s a standout passage for me, oh man, there’s, there were a lot. The one that like—I know Janette Ok always quotes me on the community of goods in Acts 2 and 4. But I think the one that like resonated the most for me is probably Paul being arrested and jailed in Philippi, and the whole thing with the prison being shaken. That passage, once I was reading it from my context, you know, understanding Philippi as a Roman colony, understanding sort of the postcolonial history of the Philippines and Filipino Americans, but also things like, in that story, Paul’s Jewishness is brought up when he’s arrested. They assume he’s not a Roman citizen, and they don’t give him a trial. And those two things really go hand in hand. Jews in the ancient Roman Empire, there’s a lot of texts where Jews are sort of considered to be always foreign, never really like true citizens. They’re always suspected for being different. And boy, does that resonate with the Asian American experience really broadly. Filipino Americans also have a higher rate of incarceration than other Asian Americans. And so being able to sort of piece that out and think about what it means in connection to this text, seeing the way that God shakes the prison, and then, you know, the jailer is baptized as well as Paul and Silas are literally set free. It’s a beautiful passage, and the more I think about it, and the more I talk about it with others, it’s the one that I think maybe resonates most.
Aaron Lee: That’s awesome. Daniel, can you relate to that?
Daniel K. Eng: Oh, I can definitely relate. It was a really meaningful experience for me to write this commentary. I think a lot of times, as an Asian American in a very white male field, biblical studies, sometimes I have to kind of tone down some of the things I talk about. But here it was great to be able to dive into these things. James, right off the bat, is written to the twelve tribes of the dispersion. That’s in 1:1, and that word dispersion, the Greek word is diaspora. And diaspora is talking about people who are living outside their ancestral homeland. And I’m like thinking, wow, that’s me. I’m living outside my ancestral homeland. And what that comes with are things like racism, marginalization, you know, just feeling like, Hey, I don’t belong here. And so I could talk about that all day, you know, what else? What else stood out to me the passage in chapter 2, when there’s two men, walk into the synagogue, there’s two men, a rich man and a poor man. And James talks about, you know, why do you pay attention and treat the rich man nicely? And that’s all about reciprocity. Because the reason why people want to treat the rich man nicely is because they think he’s going to do something nice for them in the future. And Asian cultures are a lot about reciprocity. I mean, we always feel like, hey, we need to return favors. Or when we’re invited to somebody’s house, we gotta bring a gift, things like that. That’s reciprocity. And it’s not necessarily like a tit-for-tat kind of obligation. It’s more like, that’s what relationships are built on. And so being able to see that through that lens, I was like, well, I mean, there’s a good reason that they want to show favoritism to the rich man. But James says, no, everybody, everybody should be treated. Treat them like they’re created in the image of God. You know, later on in chapter 4, James is talking about, you know, draw near to God. And He will draw near to—you draw near to God. It really resonates with somebody who is outside their ancestral homeland. Because, you know, there’s a lot of times when, you know, I feel like I’m a bad Chinese person, you know, like, hey, I don’t speak the language. I’m not really understanding all the cultural things and things like that. And so when James writes to these people and says, hey, you know, I know you’re outside your homeland, you’re far away from Jerusalem, but you can be near God too. That resonates deeply, you know. And in the way that, you know, these people probably thought they were bad Jews because they were so far away from the temple. And yet, he says, you can be close to God, and that, you know, I just, I was really struck by as I was doing this.
Aaron Lee: It’s amazing to hear both you guys, I guess, put so much of yourself into this. I could see the passion just coming out, more than just like, you know, reading the book now. It’s great to talk to you guys about it. Okay, so now that we have the book in our hands, how can preachers best incorporate it into their sermons? So basically, how should we be using this book? Now when I frame this question, I’m talking about sermons, but if you see it being used in a different way, feel free to chime in. Jordan, how can we use this book now?
Jordan Ryan: You know, one of the things that I think is really great about this book is, it is a genuine commentary. And you know, the fact that it’s done in color, you know, by people from different communities doesn’t change the fact that we’re doing good historical research here. We are thinking about, like, authorial intention, and we’re also and—I think this is actually really key thing—like we’re thinking theologically and confessionally throughout the whole book. And what that means is that it actually really loans itself to being used in church settings. Because we’re thinking about God and about, you know, actual biblical theology or practice as we’re going through these different passages. And so the way I would suggest using it is, like number one, the way you’d use kind of any commentary in preparation for preaching, because it is. You know, it is a commentary. The other thing I think that it’s really helpful for is, I think it balances out a lot of mainstream or majority culture commentaries by providing things that you might not see otherwise. I think, for example, just you know, going back to that passage about Paul’s arrest in Philippi, I think you rarely see majority culture commentaries talking about the fact that there’s maybe a connection between Paul’s Jewish identity here and the fact that they don’t give him a trial, and that they assume that he’s not a citizen. And I think that’s something that, because of my own social location, I was able to draw out a little bit, and then not just historically, but also think theologically about that and biblically about, you know, how then that can speak to our world.
Daniel K. Eng: I don’t have much to add to what my esteemed co-contributor has said already. I think he’s right. I think we’re saying that, hey, this is a real commentary. We’re writing, we’re serious scholars, and we’re writing about this. We’re trying to get to the true north, the original intent of our authors here. And so, you know, as we think through this, these are things that would stand out. And so I think it depends how you’re preaching and who you’re speaking to. So I think one of the things is to make sure that you’re using language that would resonate with your hearers. Know, your hearers well, you know. And this was an exercise in kind of contextualization efforts. And so, you know, know your hearers well, know what would resonate with them, you know. And so that’s something that Jesus does, that’s something that the New Testament authors do, they write in ways that would resonate with their hearers. And so I would encourage the person who’s using this commentary to think through these categories and to say, well, you know, what are some things that stand out to me, and those things might not stand out to someone else, and thinking in the ears of the people who are listening to this. And so I think another thing would be just to make sure that you are surrounding yourself with voices from people who are different than you. You know, as you know your own tendencies and the things that you see, remember we were saying that, you know, our social location can bring us closer or farther away from the intent of the author. And so it helps to know yourself well, but it also helps to have other voices that are different than you, people who might be a different ethnicity, or might be from a different culture, but there’s other things too, you know, things like, someone who writes in a different way, or might have a different birth order, a social class, things like that. Those are, those are people who might think differently and see things differently, and so those are great voices to have around you as you think through the meaning of the biblical text.
Aaron Lee: Daniel, Jordan, thank you so much for your time. Thank you for your work. I’ve been enjoying the book, using it as a commentary, like you said, and yeah, just, thank you. I look forward to seeing how else the book is used out in the world, and to see what else you guys do in your fields. Thank you so much.Jordan Ryan: Thank you.