In this interview with cultural critic and writer Yi Ning Chiu, Aaron Lee discusses several of Chiu’s articles and the stories behind them. Though brief, they cover much ground considering how we use or are used by en vogue thoughts and technology, and impact of K-Pop domestically and globally at the individual level, and how each story that goes to print is part of a richer and often more complex narrative.
The articles mentioned in this interview are below:
Like and Subscribe for Eternal Life
K Pop Opened Doors for AAPI Dancers Abroad. At home, They Remain Closed
Timestamps:
0:00 Intro
2:29 Discussing the article, Like and Subscribe for Eternal Life
9:45 What does it mean to be an AAPI Writer (discussing the K-Pop article for Teen Vogue)
15:21 Discussing Substack, When a Church Breaks, and the behind the scenes of writing.
Transcript
The following is an uncorrected transcript generated by a transcription service. Before quoting in print, please check the corresponding audio for accuracy.
Aaron Lee
Hi everyone. This is Aaron for SOLA Network, and I am here today with Yi Ning Chu, Yi Ning, I’ve been a fan of your work for so long, and I’m glad that I finally get to talk to you. Thank you for making the time to do this. Would you mind introducing yourself to our audience and maybe how, how we both know Kevin Chen.
Yi Ning Chiu
Yes. Okay, well, first of all, thank you so much for having me on. It’s an honor to be here. I well, I think we know each other in the capacity of my writing for Ekstasis, which is Christianity Today’s next gen endeavor, and the newsletter that they send out about culture and faith. And so I was the columnist there for about a year, and now I’m freelancing for them and for Christianity Today. You and I both know Kevin S. Chen because you reviewed his book, Wonders of Your Law, which I believe, is this book about what he coins as nexus passages in the Old Testament. And I know him because he was, I don’t know what his official title was, but he was like the helper or the intern at my youth group, which was at the same church that he grew up at. And while I could talk about Kevin Chen a lot, because I don’t know if he knows this, but he was, like, such an influential figure for me as a middle schooler, because I think he just had so much patience for all of my questions about faith. And I’m sure I was really annoying to have in youth group, because I was always like, you know, “genocide in the Old Testament. Can we talk about that, like sexual violence in the Bible. Someone please explain.” And I think, I think it got to where it was kind of annoying for people, which I totally understand. But he was so patient, I distinctly remember him like, being like, Okay, I will research that, and I will get back to you. And I thought he was just like, brushing me off, but he actually called me at my house and was like, I found the answer for you. And so I just think of Kevin S. Chen with so much gratitude, because I think he was like, a pivotal voice for me in that moment where I just really needed someone to allow me to take faith seriously.
Aaron Lee
Oh man, that’s so awesome. That’s so great. Yeah, I loved, loved his book, and I’m glad that we get to kind of have this connection. Now, this is amazing. I first came across your writing with your article, Like and Subscribe for Eternal Life, and you wrote this back in 2022 you said, right, is that what you said, yeah. it impacted me, and it impacted a lot of people. I think it’s one of the most popular on the website for them. Can you go back to what you were feeling when you were writing it? Did you know it had the potential to be a hit, and how do you feel about it now? So I really want to, I just really want to dive in and talk about your writing right now.
Yi Ning Chiu
Okay, good question. Well, I didn’t know it was going to be anything at all. Actually, I kind of pitched that story on a whim, because at the time, I think I was freelancing for Teen Vogue, mainly, and so that was like, where I was doing most of my writing and reporting. I was doing reported pieces, and so I wasn’t doing these, like, long form faith and culture articles. But I don’t even know how I found like, Ekstasis, but I think someone might have shown it to me, and I was like, Oh, I wonder if they would ever be open to having me write about this thing that I’m thinking through, which is the allure and disappointment of the internet, and how that disappointment has like, such distinctly spiritual overtones to it, and so I pitched it, and it was just like, kind of on a whim. But then Connor Sweetman, who was the editor then, and he was now on the masthead at CT now, he picked it up right away and was like, let’s try it. But the funny thing was, it was a really hard article to write, because, as I’m sure any of your listeners know who write about faith, it’s just like 20 times harder to write about faith and your own faith, compared to writing about like anything else, like a school paper, a reported piece, something that’s external to you. But because faith is so all consuming, like trying to articulate it and then even, like, pick apart how you arrive at certain conclusions feels really, really difficult. So I did not know it was ever going to be finished, honestly, because it took so many drafts, and then when it was done, I was surprised at like, the reception that it had, but I’m glad it resonated with people. I’m really glad that people still like it.
Aaron Lee
How do you feel about it right now looking back at it. I mean, you’re happy that people like it, but like do you read your own writing?
Yi Ning Chiu
How I feel about it now is, I think at the time, I felt like I was being pretty hard on the potential pitfalls that come with. The usage of the social internet, and now looking back, I feel like I wasn’t hard enough. I actually feel like I was too gentle. Because, yeah, I just think that in 2022 we were in a moment as a nation where, I mean, assuming, like, listeners are, like, you know, within, like, the West, right? Like we were in a moment where we had come through like a very acrimonious presidential election season. We were coming out of COVID. If you’re on the West Coast, you were watching the wildfires happen, and I think you were seeing all these things refracted through people’s interpretations of them on the social internet, which, by nature, is designed to reward the most extreme viewpoint that you can find, and surface those viewpoints and get the eyeballs on those viewpoints. And at the time, I was like, Yeah, this is really bad. We shouldn’t do this. We don’t want to have our lives inscribed in the minds and the structures of men who have a profit motive for everything they do, for how they organize our information, our world, yada yada yada. I still stand by that, but I think what’s become even more apparent is like how, how, not only has that become a structural reality, but that structural reality has come to shape our moral imagination, and it’s very hard now to think of an alternative to that structure. And so that’s all very abstract, but an example that comes to mind now. And this is like, not to like, denigrate any single political party or political stance, but I was reading some political reporting that was done like, 2030, years ago last night. So it’s like old stuff right before we have the social internet as we know it. And there was some writing about like the Reagan presidency. And some of that writing was about how the presidency has essentially become a rhetorical performance, where the legitimacy of your work as a president depends in part on your ability to make rhetorical flourishes that show that you are going above the heads of those who oppose you, or you are fighting against the institutions that are not out for the interests of their people, and like, your rhetorical performance as someone who is like standing against these like institutions or these powers like that kind of legitimizes your place of authority. And it made me think I was like, Wow, this was written before the social internet, but that’s also a pretty apt description of how people perform their legitimacy online, right? It’s like, I’m telling you the truth that you wouldn’t get through other places. I’m giving you the information on my feed that you can’t obtain from mainstream sources because they don’t have your best interest in mind. And so there’s just this, like very oppositional moral imagination where it’s like to be a moral person, to occupy moral high ground, you have to first prove how many people are out to get you. So I wish I had gone in on that a little bit more, because I think I was actually too soft. And I think to bring it back to the conversation then about faith, because I think that’s what it comes down to, for me, is the moral posturing of the internet, and the whole idea of like a Rhetorical Presidency, and even like rhetorical performances of authority, is very antithetical to what I think the scriptural vision of authority is, which is where Jesus says, like, you know, among the Gentiles, like the great among the Gentiles, like you, lord it over one another, but it’s not going to be that way among you, because if you want to be great, you have to be a servant. Because the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve. And so when I think about that verse of Christ talking about you have to intentionally set yourself up to say, I’m not here to be served. I’m not here to amass notoriety or power, but I’m here to humble myself. There’s no reward for that posture on the internet. The economy of the internet doesn’t run on like, humility or self effacement. So that’s why I say like, I feel like I could have been harder on things and people I love.
Aaron Lee
I honestly, I love your critical attitude towards your own work, and just the fact that, yeah, you could have, you could have been harsher on it. I think that, I think, I think that’s a great attitude to have, actually. I mean, I’m sure it’s hard to be that way, to have that critical eye on your own work, but I really appreciate that you’re able to do that. And I feel that it’s almost as if you’re, you’re, like, critiquing yourself, almost like, hey, like you should have done this better, you know, or like, been more harsh on that. And I appreciate that about your writing, because you’re able to bring yourself into these cultural moments or these cultural topics, I feel like so this, this next one, I want to talk about the article that you did write for Teen Vogue, or the one that I saw, K Pop Opened Doors for AAPI Dancers Abroad. At home, they remain closed. And I thought that this one was interesting because you’re coming at it from your perspective, I guess, as an Asian American. So I want to hear about that. What does it mean for you to be an Asian American, and what does that mean for your faith and for your writing?
Yi Ning Chiu
Good question. It’s funny. We went from, like, theology of the Internet to Teen Vogue and K Pop.
Aaron Lee
I mean, your topics are broad. I feel like, you know, like I was reading on your bio and like, your, oh, this is what I identify with. Or I don’t think you use the word identify, like, your background or whatever, and you’re listing all this stuff. And I was just like, relatable yet broad, you know, like, it’s a lot of stuff there.
Yi Ning Chiu
Oh, I like that. That’s a good bio. Actually, relatable yet broad. I mean, yeah, well, the k pop one, I’m trying to think, like, well, what does it mean for me to be an Asian American? How does that shape my faith in writing? Well, I think for me, I did not grow up in a predominantly Asian neighborhood, and so I actually grew up in, like, in the American South, and it’s like, the school I attended and the people I was around, I was like, the only I was often the only person who looked like me in my class or on my street, etc. And so I think I’ve always been very self conscious about my Asian-ness. I think when it comes to my faith, and therefore why it figures into my writing, I think the way that it works is this, like I feel like growing up, my ethnicity felt like a liability, because it was just so visible and so different, and I felt like my family couldn’t really go anywhere without that being factored into how we were received or what people assumed about us. Excuse me, like even in faith environments, you know, faith communities. And I think that was very painful. I think like growing up and then having a more robust understanding of, like, just God’s deliberateness and how he creates people. Number one, that was helpful. And then number two, I think was very transformative, was realizing how much of the New Testament is, like, I don’t want to say obsessed with race, but, like, a little bit, you know, how, um, you know, when there’s outpouring the Holy Spirit in the acts church, like one of the first signs of the Spirit is, like the ability of the apostles to speak across these cultural and racial barriers. And then even, like the Epistles themselves, like how they are addressed to people based on their geographic location and their culture. And so I think all that just told me like, rather than ethnicity and background being a liability, it is a medium through which God can speak and a medium through which he can make himself known, and a way in which he invites us to interact with one another in a way that can, kind of, like apprehend his intentions towards people. So I think because of that, I want to be a little bit more, I think, direct and addressing issues of race and background. So I think that’s what, how it’s played into, like my faith and my identity for this article in particular, I wanted to write about this because 2023 was already, like, we were three years into seeing like, stop AAPI hate. And what was really weird for me was like, the spike in AAPI hate crimes also coincided with, like, the rise of K culture in America. And I am not by any means, like a K Pop expert. I don’t know a whole lot about K Pop, but I was noticing, you know, I was noticing like, BTS is getting like, air time on mainstream radio. I was noticing them pop up on like social media feeds, like, even for someone like me, who I think is kind of oblivious to some things I could notice and see. Oh yeah, they did, like an NPR Tiny Desk concert. So anyhow, I was just trying to figure out, like, Well, why are these two things coinciding with one another, and do they have any meaningful relationship? Because to be an Asian American, and then to be an Asian person residing in your country of origin like these are two very different experiences, but do they have relationship right now? So I think that was, like the starting point, and I didn’t know what direction the article was going to go in, because I was like, I don’t know the answer to this question. I really am curious to know. Is the rise in K culture sufficient to counteract some of the more deep seated institutional biases or cultural attitudes that exist in America, and doing that article showed that it has open doors for AAPI artists, but those doors are not necessarily open domestically, but it’s more like there’s this new front of culture creation opening up that has become an alternative for some people. Yeah, they can’t find opportunities at home.
Aaron Lee
Yeah, I thought it was super insightful. What you just said right now about using, almost, using race ethnicity to your advantage for the gospel, right? I think that was, I think that was good. And I think I want to take that for myself now, you know, like I can play into that a little bit more. I want to talk more about race, and maybe I think it can come out through this next article that you wrote in Christianity Today, When a Church Breaks. This was recent in March 2025, and the way that I want to frame this is that you actually have a Substack called, Please Don’t Go, and in your words, it’s a monthly essay about life with other people, why it’s terrible, why it’s essential, and why we shouldn’t give up on it. And what I loved about your recent one is that you gave a behind the scenes look almost like the background story of how you wrote or what was your thinking behind this piece in Christianity Today. Tell me about your substack, where you are as a writer, as you publish your pieces, you know, maybe just writing for different publications, and tell me more about what it looks like to be Yi Ning Chiu as a person. Because I don’t know if you’ve shared more behind the scenes stuff like how, how you came to that article, and it was, like, kind of heavy stuff. I think when you wrote that, I’m gonna link to all of this, by the way, just so everybody knows. But you can correct me if I’m saying anything wrong here, but that’s what I got when I read it.
Yi Ning Chiu
Okay, thank you for reading that article. It was pretty long, and you’re right, like, it does deal with some heavy things. I guess I can first talk about the article, because I feel like it has a lot to do with the genesis of the sub stack. Okay, so the article is about the experience of watching a church that I attended for over a decade and really, really loved and considered like a formative set of relationships, watching that church fall apart, and then the subsequent process of trying to wrestle with God, not because I doubted the person of Christ or like the reality of the gospel, but because I was having a lot of trouble connecting what the Gospel says with how it’s supposed to manifest in, like, the long term relationships between people who may have the best intentions, maybe really devout, but are still vulnerable to the vicissitudes of their culture. And so that essay was like an attempt to do that. And the funny thing was, like, when I pitched it, and when the article, like, originally sold, and I think I talked about this on sub sack, excuse me, I intended to write something, um, a little more theoretical and, like, honestly, like, kind of didactic to say something about, like, here’s why you shouldn’t abandon your local church. And that was, like, kind of my goal in writing this piece. But then as I was writing it, Kate Lucky, who was one of the editors at CT, she gave me some really good feedback where she was like, you know, there is, like, this thing that you’re kind of stepping around on the article, and it’s not really clear what it is, but I’m curious, like, what is your experience? And I thought that was very fair feedback. Because, yeah, obviously I think there’s a lot of spiritual writing, and I do this too, like a lot of religious writing where the writer clearly has a stake in the issue, but they’re not being very forthcoming about what that stake is. And I think Kate could see that. So she’s like, why are you so concerned you know, about what people think about the local church? Like, what is your stake in this. And then I had to start to come to terms with how I was being formed by the experience of my church. But that’s where the genesis of the article came from. I can say more about that if you want me to.
Aaron Lee
Well, only for only, only if you think you have to. I mean, people can read it for themselves. You know, I found it to be really, no, I think captivating. I don’t know, just to see, like the process behind it, because I think that’s what a good editor does, right? The editor is able to get you, get you to say stuff that maybe you don’t know how to say it, or you don’t want to say it.
Yi Ning Chiu
Yeah, I guess Kate did her job at that. I feel like, in the article itself, in the CT article, yeah, that, that kind of did open it up a little bit. I felt like, Yeah, I think she did a good job. Because I guess when it comes down to it, the article wouldn’t even be a complete statement without the personal story. Because kind of like the thesis of the article is like, the church is always going to be an embodied experience, like, it’s not, it’s not a set of ideas, right? And it’s not a theory. Like, the church has to be embodied, and it has to be made vulnerable and permeable to our daily lives and our relationships. Otherwise, it’s not doing anything, right? It’s not at all approximating what Christ did, which was to embody himself and be vulnerable. And I guess, you know, if I were to say more about the article, I would just say this. I think seeing how the article was received by different people is really interesting, because I think for the most part, the reception has been so great, and I’ve been really honored like, to just hear people talk about like, oh, you know, maybe this helped me process my own church hurt, or it helped me remember that like Christ is present even in the midst of churches that can be very broken. But sometimes I think there can be the possibility of people looking at articles about church errors and seeing it as an opportunity to, just like, litigate all the mistakes of the Big C, you know, the broader church. And that’s exactly the opposite of what I’m going for. Because I think you know what I really am hoping for, especially for the American church, honestly, like in this moment, is like, when I look at the American church, I just see every denomination, like every like aspect, like high church, low church, you know, like mainline, like anybody that you talk to who’s been in the church and has been invested for a long time has experienced heartbreak. I feel like there’s just been scandal after scandal at every level of the church, like it’s hard to be invested in the church and to not feel very viscerally like the pain of believing in this body and seeing it falter. And my goal with the article was not to be like, Well, look, here’s another one. Here’s another church that messed up, which is proves we can’t do anything right, but my goal is to really show like there’s kind of this inevitability about a church’s mistakes, and we should not be resigned to those mistakes, but we shouldn’t take them as the final word of what the church is or what it’s capable of, and so that’s also why the name of my sub stack is, please don’t go because the thesis of that substack is just like, there are so many reasons to become hardened to the possibility of communion with other people and with God. But if we can, just like endure a little bit longer, if we can just make ourselves more sensitive to the possibility of the move of God in our midst, if we can be more generous in our interpretations of one another, that it’s possible for us to have that communion rather than defaulting to alienation?
Aaron Lee
Yes, yes. So good. We have to end on that, that that’s the perfect note to end on everything. Thank you so much for your time. And yeah, I think that hope really comes through your writing. And I hope you don’t stop writing. I want you to keep writing forever, and I will be there to read it. Thank you so much.
Yi Ning Chiu
Thank you, Aaron, thank you for having me.