Here at the SOLA Network, we host illuminating conversations on the intersection of faith and identity. We continue this discussion with an interview with Michelle Lee-Barnewall, author of A Longing to Belong: Reflections on Faith, Identity, and Race, which discusses the topics of race and race relations by integrating a biblical worldview and her personal experiences.
SOLA Editorial Board member Daniel K. Eng interviewed Dr. Lee-Barnewall, who is also a professor at Biola University, about her book and her background. Their conversation included:
- Dr. Lee-Barnewall experiences growing up as the only Asian family in Northern Minnesota
- The tension between individual identity and the unity emphasized in Christianity.
- The idea that “rejection is a form of death” and, in contrast, the life-giving nature of acceptance.
- The deep connection between biblical reconciliation, grace, and the desire for genuine belonging.
We hope you are encouraged by their conversation as you resonate with the longing we all have to belong.
Watch their interview below or on our YouTube page. You can also listen via Podcast.
Editor’s Note: Below is a rough transcription of their conversation. It has been lightly edited for clarity. Please note there may be typos or grammatical errors.
Daniel K. Eng: Well, hello, everyone. It’s Daniel here at the SOLA Network. And here I am with Dr. Michelle Lee Barnewall, and she is an affiliate professor of New Testament at Biola University. And Michelle, we’ve talked before, and I appreciate our conversations in the past. I’m also an admirer of your Biblical Studies work.
But today, I want to highlight a book that’s a little bit different. And you’ve written this book, it’s called A Longing to Belong: Reflections on Faith, Identity, and Race. And this was released in October 2023.
You published a great deal on Biblical Studies. Actually, this book has some really solid material and biblical studies, but it’s also really personal. And so you share and you share about your race, your race, ethnicity, your experience with those things. So maybe you could share a bit about yourself and what led you to write this book.
Dr. Michelle Lee-Barnewall: Yeah. Well, thanks so much for having me. Again, I really, really appreciate it. It’s great to see you and to talk with you again.
Yes, the reason I wrote the book was I felt like I had a slightly different perspective from other people, slightly different vantage point. And that is, first of all, I grew up in Northern Minnesota. My family was, you know, we’re pretty much the only Asian family there. Very, very few minorities overall. So I really had, you might think, sort of an intense experience of knowing what it feels like to be marginalized. So I write about, you know, this experience in the book and kind of what it felt like and kind of things that I had to grapple with in terms of issues related to my identity.
But at the same time as a biblical scholar, and it just kind of so happened that by research, my dissertation was written on the Body of Christ. And so really, most of my thinking, for the last twenty, 25 years or more has been what does it mean to be unified? What’s it mean to be at the diverse, but one body of Christ.
And so I thought that I really wanted to, you know, write something that brought those two together, because I feel like so much of the racial discussion today tends to go on one side or the other. You know, it’s either people talking about, here’s my personal experience, I mean, and here’s, you know, sort of like, why, you know, maybe we should pay attention to these personal experiences. But then on the other, you have maybe this sort of, you know, research saying, you know, I’m a Christian, well, you know, you know, we’re supposed to be one, you know, me, we’re just, you know, one family, one body of Christ and race shouldn’t matter, you know, in that regard.
So I kind of felt that, you know, because I kind of had both, you know, the experience, but then also, you know, the biblical training, and that, that maybe I could, you know, contribute, you know, in that way. And so for me, the book kind of has these, as you’d notice, has kind of like the sort of two sides, and it kind of goes, you know, back and forth.
I talked about, you know, some of my personal experiences when it was like, you know, growing up in Northern Minnesota, being the only Asian kid, you know, in my class, and just kind of, you know, what life was like, just feeling like, you know, sort of isolated, feeling, like, when you’re the only one who’s, you know, who’s not white, you don’t feel like you’re normal, or you feel like there’s something wrong with you, you know, sort of what that was like, and then also, there’s this aspect of, you know, my parents being, you know, immigrants from Korea in the 50s, and kind of their journey too, know what it was, like, you know, to sort of leave one country to kind of come to a new country and try to, you know, try to find a new identity and a sense of tried to fit in, and some of the struggles that, you know, they had.
So I felt like I wanted to be able to, you know, share some of that. That’s why the book is so personal. You know, I felt like I really had to be kind of personal to sort of, you know, help people know, you know, what it was like, you know, what, you know, someone’s experience of marginalization in that way is like. But at the same time, I’m trying to bring in this, you know, Biblical Studies aspect, because then I’m asking the question, well, how do we think about race? You know, the question kind of comes up, does race matter? You know, no, no, no, you know, we’re one in Christ, it shouldn’t matter. But no, actually, race does matter.
And so I tried to kind of lay out, you know, some of these aspects of, on the one hand, Galatians 3:28, does say, There’s neither Jew nor Greek. We’re all one in Christ in the Spirit. But yet you also see, you know, in the rest of the New Testament, you know, especially Paul was specifically referred to, you know, to the Jew first, you know, then to the Gree, you know, in the eschaton, Romans 11. You know, when, you know, when the Jews are saying and this is why, you know, God is hard to do so the Gentiles come in. He’s just kind of like throughout the New Testament, there’s not only just this identification of Jew and Greek, there’s also really an honoring of their ethnic identity.
You know, in Romans 14, and 15, there seems to be sort of a, you know, a battle between, you know, the conflict between, you know, those who want to keep Jewish customs, and those who feel like you don’t need to. And Paul ultimately says, you know, let the Jew be a Jew. You know what I mean? Let them keep their customs. Or Acts 15 You know, should the Gentiles become Jews? The answer was no, let the Gentiles, you know, stay Gentile. So I feel like what it is, is there’s actually a tension in scripture, it’s kind of a both and. We’re one where it doesn’t matter, you know, in the spirit, and yet, when it comes to our daily lives here, while we’re in the body, it actually does make a difference.
And I just felt that maybe that was something I could talk about in terms of how we, you know, think about both of those sides and, you know, be able to hold them in tension.
Daniel K. Eng: You know, there’s a lot of there’s a lot as I was reading, you know, both as a biblical scholar, but also as a follower of Jesus, who has felt a lot of the things that you felt this, a lot of this resonated with me in a way that I don’t normally get. So I really appreciated a lot of your thoughts in this book, you know, and a lot of our readers and listeners experience being different. And, and just like you share in your book, and your experiences with race and, and your feeling being left out or feeling included, sometimes it led you to think about some really profound biblical truths.
So I want to highlight some some quotes from your book that really resonated with me and and I’d like you to comment on, you know, what was going through your mind, but also kind of, you know, what did what did that lead you to, in terms of reflecting on the Bible and how, how that how that truth speaks to you. So there was a part early on, where you say, “rejection is a form of death. That’s what it felt like to be me. But the opposite is also true. There is something lifegiving about being accepted.” I’m gonna skip down a bit. “This acceptance is a kind of grace, a grace that gives us life.”
Dr. Michelle Lee-Barnewall: Well, you know, as I think about that, one basic truth is we are created to be in community. You know, we’re created to be in community with God, we were created to, you know, Adam was created to be with Eve. God creates communities. And so we really do impact, you know, one another, you know, and that. And so the acceptance and rejection is, you know, huge for us. And if you look at, you know, you look at scripture, let’s say, you know, just kind of one of the things I think about, if we’re student about how God accepts us, on the one hand, we tend to think about and this is true, salvation in terms of the sort of legal forensic aspect, you know, I’m a sinner, God is holy, I deserve to go to hell. God has forgiven me, you know, because of Jesus, perfect sacrifice so God no longer counts my sin against me, and I’m seen as clean in his sight.
Now, that’s definitely true. But what it doesn’t bring out is this aspect of reconciliation with God. And I mean, that this, you know, God created us. He created us to be in relationship with Him, He wants us to have that intimate relationship with Him. And so when I see stories, you see this in Scripture, let’s say if we were to take the story of the prodigal son, okay, and so when the prodigal son comes back after you know squandering his father’s money after insulting his father, his father doesn’t just say, oh, okay I forgive you come back into the house. He’s overjoyed to see him. You know, he’s just so happy that his son is back. And what you get the sense is, it’s what I remember a long time, I think it was Phil Yancey talked about it. You know, when he first you know, when he was first with a Christian, he felt like God accepted him grudgingly. You know, of course, God forgave him, but he just was like, he kind of was grinding, maybe didn’t want to, but he kind of has to because, you know, because He’s God. But what you get in the prodigal son is God just wants us to be with him, you know, and what you have is a sense of, you know, he loves the son for who he is, you know, in this, he loves him, you know, not just sort of despite his sin, he loves him as his flawed self.
Or if you were to take another, you know, story in Scripture, the story about the woman who, you know, anoints Jesus, and here she is, you know, she’s, you know, forgiven that the Pharisee you know, wants to you know, Simon wants to judge her, but the woman is so overwhelmed with you know, Jesus is great. As that you sort of lavishes him, you know, with this, you know, with this anointing, and you kind of get the sense that it’s not just that her sins were forgiven, but she knows that Jesus saw her. And I mean that Jesus sees past the muck and the ugliness of other parts of her life and he kind of just sees who she is. And so you see, just, you know, her response in that regard. And so I think that, you know, God, you know, 1 Corinthians 13:12, you know, tells us that, you know, we are fully known by God. So he knows everything about me, my, the good things and the bad things.
But even with all that, Romans 5:5 says, His love is poured out on me, through His Holy Spirit. Not just sort of given, it’s poured out lavish. And so I think all that comes this idea that, you know, God loves us, because He created us. He loves us for who we are, we don’t have to perform, we don’t have to be perfect. You know, we’re loved, because we’re, you know, because I’m me, in this regard. And I think that’s the kind of, on the one hand, the life, I think that we can give to one another, you know, to be able to just really see people kind of see, you know, beyond, you know, you know, things in their life. But I think it also speaks to why, you know, when you’re rejected because of race, also why it’s so painful.
Because one, it’s not something I can control. I mean, it’s like, I’m just born this way, you know, I mean, and there’s, you know, this, oh, I can’t do anything about it. But you know, you’re choosing to reject me, you’re choosing to, you know, say this, you know about me, and there’s really nothing I can do. And there’s also the sense of, you know, you can’t see beyond you know what I mean this, you just see this, and you can’t go any further, but there’s a lot to me, you know, but why are you stopping here and, and rejecting me, in that regard. So I think, you know, when we think about it, this is so much about the gospel is about, and I mean that, you know, Jesus came to reconcile us with God, personally, intimately, and with, you know, with one another. And that’s what grace is about, because, of course, we’re all imperfect. And so if we’re waiting for, you know, perfect people to be, you know, perfect in every way, you know, that’s not going to happen. But all the love that God wants to lavish on this grace is because, you know, we don’t have to be perfect. And I think that just enormously praying for us. We can be who we are.
Daniel K. Eng: Yeah, I appreciate what you’ve written this book for the average churchgoer. And I appreciate that you kind of bring this conversation of race into our understanding of the gospel. And I appreciate what you’re saying about it’s not it’s not just the forensic part, you’re talking about the legal part of that. But there’s a there’s a deeply relational part to the gospel that I think we need to talk about more. So I appreciate your thoughts on this.
Later on, you share about your discomfort in seeing a statue of a Confederate soldier, you’re in the South. And, and this is what you saw. And you wrote this, “my race impacts how I experienced some situations.” And you write, “we’re shaped by what happens in the body. Our identity is not individuals isolated in protective bubbles, we interact with our environments, and are changed by them. My core identity may be in Christ, like everyone else’s, but I have a particular life of in-Christness that is uniquely my own.” What did you mean by that? And why did you reflect on that?
Dr. Michelle Lee-Barnewall: Yeah. What I mean by that is, and we’re kind of thinking about who we are, we’re holistic people, you know, we are spirit and, and body. And I think we tend to emphasize a lot about the spiritual aspect. You know, it’s because of my spirit that I’m in communion with God. And, you know, definitely I’m not denying any of that. But I think what we tend to do, you know, often is we don’t think as much about what it means to be in the body. We don’t think as much about we don’t, often we don’t value the body, you know, that much. But we forget that actually, what happens is our bodies are going to be resurrected, and you know, our eternal existence is going to be a bodily existence. And you think about what happens, you know, why the body is significant.
Among other things, the body is what makes me an individual, you know, the spirit is the unifier. Okay. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 12, you know, in one spirit, while baptized into one body, so the idea that the spirit is he’s the one who makes us one, okay, but the bodies is what makes me an individual, you know, that what, you know, I mean, that’s what differentiated me from you and other people, I live this, you know, existence in the body. And so there’s a sense in which, you know, of course, we’re all in Christ. And we’re all called to, you know, say, you know, you know, develop the fruit of the Spirit, you know, in our lives in that. But the fact that, you know, I live this you know individual existence in the body means my life is going to, you know, sort of turn out differently than yours. You know, because of the body, I’m in Tennessee, you know, and you’re in, you know, in Portland, right? You know, in this regard, and, or you experience things as a man and I experienced, you know, you know, things as a woman. And, you know, the story that I talk about, you know, in the book, as you mentioned, about the Confederate soldier, you know, for people is because they’re probably not as familiar with the, you know, the book right now.
But basically, we had my husband, and I’ve been thinking about, you know, moving to, you know, Tennessee, and I’m not really wanting to move to Tennessee, because I’m thinking, Oh, my goodness, this the South, and I’m thinking, if I move to the South, it’s just going to be like, growing up in northern Minnesota, where before, I’ve been, you know, pretty comfortable, you know, in Southern California. And so we take one weekend, and we’re, you know, kind of driving around the area, because, you know, it’s the sort of see how I’m going to feel, you know, being there, and we stopped in one town, and we’re having lunch, you know, kind of in the towns where we see the stats, you this little sort of like garden area and a statue, you know, in the middle of the square. And so we get done with lunch, we just just kind of walk over, let’s, you know, hey, this is like a nice statue, let’s see what it is. And we look at the statue, and we’re like, oh, I’m like, it’s a statue of a Confederate soldier, and the kind of commemorating the Confederate soldier and his, you know, you know, his honor and his duty and everything. And my reaction first is I’m trying to sort of be intellectual, right? I’m thinking, okay, you know, should, you know, should this statue be here? You know, I realized that, you know, there’s arguments that oh, it’s, you know, a southern cultural thing, and this, and so I’m trying to be intellectual about it. And then I kind of stop and I go, Well, you know, what, I feel like kind of funny about this, let me just think about how I feel. And I literally was feeling a little sick to my stomach, you know, looking at the statue and thinking about, like, Why do I feel this way? And then when I realized this, because I’ve been so I’ve been thinking, like, I don’t want to, you know, go back to a place where it’s going to be like, where I was, you know, growing up in this. And so looking at the statue made me think, oh, is this what it’s going to be? So I’m having this very emotional reaction, you know, to it.
Needless to say, my husband, who is white had a different reaction to that. He did not feel the same way. So I had to kind of explain to him what was, you know, going on. And we kind of think about it, so we’re kind of both in Christ. But in a sense, because of, you know, my race, and because what I experienced because of my race, we have, I have a different perspective, you know, on that statue, it caused me a different kind of reaction, you know, to it. And this is not something that just happens in regards to race. It can happen for other things, just like, you know, being a woman, you know, the other side, just like, you know, when I was on campus at Biola, you know, the female staff and faculty, we’d all talk about, like, oh, I don’t want to be here once it gets dark, you know, why is Carol working so late? She’s the only one in the building? Well, none of my male colleagues ever talked about that. You know, but that’s a difference that comes because, you know, because of my, you know, because of who I am, in terms of, you know, being a woman. And so that’s part of it’s part of my bodily my individual existence, you know, from that.
Daniel K. Eng: Alright, later on, you share about an experience you had at LAX, the Los Angeles Airport. And you write, “I had stepped into a completely new world, a world that instantly brought me a sense of comfort.” You’re talking about seeing that racial diversity in LAX. “I entered the mass of black, brown and blond haired people, like a little kid stepping into a swimming pool on a hot summer day, and feeling the pleasure of being engulfed in cool, comforting water. I don’t have I didn’t have to carry a continuous sense of being different. And knowing everyone else saw me as the odd one out. In that moment, I could forget about me.” Michelle, I just want to say you’re a good storyteller. But that was a really profound moment. And you’re reflecting on this. So tell me more about this.
Dr. Michelle Lee-Barnewall: Yeah, as I think about that, I was a little surprised by my reaction too. You know, I was really surprised that it kind of, like caught me, you know, in that way. But as I kind of look back, you know, I’m thinking about, you know, my experience growing up, you know, since I was pretty much you know, the only Asian kid there that, you know, some of my experience growing up is, you know, I could just, you know, I’m walking down the street of my hometown. And if I just see some kids coming towards me, I don’t know if they’re gonna start, you know, mocking me or teasing me or calling me names in this. You know, it happens, you know, pretty often. And so, I kind of develop these mindsets and ways of relating to the world. So one of the things I developed was I kind of have this like alertness, you know, this vigilance. Okay, here comes some kids. I don’t know who they are. I mean, are they gonna say, do something? Am I gonna have to respond have to do something? And that’s, that was part of my relating to the world, what’s it going to be like, you know, when, you know when when we come face to face and this.
The other thing I developed was kind of this sort of self consciousness. I talked about different stories in the book where I’m thinking. I’m thinking, you know, I’m just fitting in with, you know, everyone else at school, and no one sees me as different. And then something comes up where, you know, suddenly I realized, like, they actually do see me as being, you know, very different. And so I kind of developed the self consciousness of, you know, I’m different. You know what I mean, it’s like, people must be seeing me as different because I keep getting the signals that I’m different. And that’s just, you know, that becomes kind of a constant way of relating to the world. And so, you know, when I kind of stepped out at the airport, at LAX, and I’m thinking, Whoa, everyone’s different. You know what I mean? Like, no one’s gonna notice me, you know, I don’t stand out. And then I realized that, oh, I can kind of drop some of these weights. I don’t have to necessarily be so hyper vigilant, I don’t have to be self conscious. And it was just actually a very, you know, kind of freeing thing. You know, I just felt like I kind of relaxed, you know, in that. And to me, I think one of the biblical truths that reflects this idea that we want to belong, you know, we want to fit in, we want to feel like we’re normal. And in 1 Corinthians 12, Paul talks about the body of Christ, we often think about it functionally, if you’re this part, you do this job. And if you’re this part, you do that job, which is true. But when you really look at a lot of the things that are said there, you know, the foot laments, you know, I mean, that it’s like, not a hand in that regard. And so it says, oh, maybe not a part of the body? Well, what does that lament reflect, it reflects that it wants to be a part of the body. And so it just kind of reflect this idea that this is a part of who we are, we want to belong, you know, to that. And this is something that because we want to belong, when we don’t have it, you know, that that impacts us.
Daniel K. Eng: Well, there’s a lot of folks who are watching and listening to this who have had similar experiences to you. And so what encouragement would you have for someone who feels out of place? Or is longing to belong?
Dr. Michelle Lee-Barnewall: Well, I guess the first thing is, ultimately, we do have to realize that the only place where we really, really are going to feel like we belong is with God. Because we were created to be with him, that’s sort of like our first relationship. And so first of all, I would say, we really do need to cultivate that. And I mean, to take that time just to, you know, to be with God, cultivate that relationship. What does it mean that, you know, God loves each of us, like, as lavishly, as he says, in, you know, Romans 5:5, or you know, like the, you know, like the prodigal son, because that’s really where our, our only perfect sense of belonging, you know, is going to be, so we really have to, you know, prioritize that.
But on the other hand, it’s got the spirit and body. We were created, to be in relationship with other people, you know, and so we really do want that, that really is an important part of what we’re meant to be. And sadly, we all go through these different experiences to different degrees, where we don’t feel like, you know, belong, and some of us, sometimes we feel like, we don’t belong anywhere, or we feel like we belong here, but not there. And then it’s just a really, you know, painful experience, because we really, you know, want that.
So I guess maybe in some ways, like a practical note, in terms of that is really just to kind of ask the Lord, you know, where are some of the places where I do belong, in this. And it doesn’t have to necessarily be a place where you think you should belong, if that makes sense.
Here’s kind of like a small example, when I was in high school, you know, I definitely didn’t belong, you know, I mean, with the popular kids, um, I had my little group of nerdy friends and this was before nerdy was cool, too. But I was actually very happy to be with my nerdy friends, we had a great time. And we, you know, we got along, we had, we enjoyed it, and they were just, you know, I felt like I, you know, belonged with them.
And so there are other times where do you, you know, I mean, sometimes we feel like I want to belong here because it’s prestigious, I want to belong here because then it looks cool, or I’ll feel better, but just ask the Lord to show you, you know, where that you know, where are you, you know, where you belong.
And then maybe also again, just on a practical thing is that we all have seasons of belonging too you know, that we may have seasons where sometimes we really don’t feel like we belong, and the hope may be like maybe later there will be you know, you know, where we are right now is not always going to be where we are going to be later. You know, in that regard, you know, we go through you know, life you know, we go through a lot of life changes right? And to where we are now is not where we’re going to be, you know, forever, but also just kind of realize a season then maybe just even see, you know, are there places here, you know, where I belong maybe even that I don’t even see, you know, in this, you know, organic seasons like, you know, one of the things that I do miss is belonging to an academic community. You know, since I left my full-time position at Biola, I miss being able to go to campus and, you know, have conversations with my colleagues. So I miss that, you know, that sense of belonging. But I’m moving here to Tennessee, you know, I’m spending more time with, you know, with my grandchildren, and so kind of have that aspect of, you know, family belonging, so, you know, life isn’t perfect, right? You know, we’ve kind of, you know, kind of have to give up this part, but I kind of gain this. And what I want to do is kind of be receptive in this season of my life. You know, this is where you I mean, this is a very, you know, precious aspect of belonging. I still miss this. But, you know, this is where I am, you know, right now.
Daniel K. Eng: Well, Michelle, I really appreciate your time. And again, the book is called A Longing to Belong. It’s from Zondervan. And the release date is October 2023. Thanks for writing this book. I’m hoping this will serve the church really well. Michelle Lee Barnewall, everyone. Thanks.
Dr. Michelle Lee-Barnewall: Thanks so much for having me.