SOLA Network had the privilege of speaking to Tom Lin, who serves as president and CEO of InterVarsity Christian Fellowship. Tom is the author of Pursuing God’s Call (2012) and Losing Face, Finding Grace (1996), as well as co-editor of the Urbana Onward book series (2012).
Tom Lin spoke to Heidi Wong, SOLA Editorial Board member and college ministry director at Exilic Church in New York City. They discussed the current state of the college generation in terms of faith, especially Asian American college students.
Their conversation included:
- Supporting college students moving to a new city
- Using social media to reach out to new students
- Spending time with students to learn about them
- Conversations around mental health
We hope you are blessed and challenged by their conversation.
Watch his talk on YouTube, listen to the audio on Podcasts, or read the transcript below. Please note the transcript has only been lightly edited and may contain spelling or grammatical errors.
Heidi Wong: Tom, great to meet you. The first question is: what do you see the state of the college generation in terms of faith?
Tom Lin: Yeah, great question. I assume if we want to focus maybe on Asian Americans, the state of maybe Asian Americans is, you know, maybe the whole population, obviously, there’s a lot of talk about the rise of the nones and very non religious generation. As we think about Generation Z, probably more than half have no faith background at all, or no religious background in the Asian American space, I think, generally, of course, less religious, less Christian background than previous generations. We’re seeing a lot of students who have never heard the gospel before come on campus never had an Asian church experience, even, you know, never been to an immigrant church, you know, first generation church, if they’ve been to church, they’ve been to maybe a multi ethnic or Caucasian church, because they’re a second third generation. So it is quite different than before. I think that’s one thing that we need to realize is very different. One of the things that I would say is crucial for us to understand about the faith of this generation is they they’re very concerned about seeing the Gospel be good news. So you can believe in it, but they don’t really see it often be good news on campus, when they’re on their campus, does it have any relevance to the issues of the day? Does it have any relevance to their studies? Does that have any relevance to the things that their friends are talking about? And when they need a Christian faith that’s robust, that can distract can engage those issues, and even give them guidance on how to engage those issues. And so I think that’s what they’re really looking for, and sometimes missing.
Heidi Wong: It’s good, obviously, because of your job, you engage with a lot of different kinds of people, a lot of students. And, you know, in today’s world, it’s very common for students to leave home and go to school in a completely new city, often they visit before they enroll. So for churches that, you know, during the summers during breaks, when students come home, how can churches best support these students? And I guess maybe like local churches, near college campuses, who are receiving a lot of these students coming from out of town, I guess, like for both of those kinds of churches, how can they best support our Asian American college students today?
Tom Lin: Yeah, I mean, I think, most importantly, to remember, recognize this generation is the most isolated generation ever. They’re lonely, isolated, yet at the same time, want friendship and community. They want to belong somewhere. And it’s kind of a paradox, right? So they’re feeling so lonely, yet. They desire that community. And I think if, if churches can have that in mind, students want a home, you know, they want a community. They and what I often tell folks is, you know, if you can, when students are leaving your churches, commission them, like, send them off, they’re almost like, they’re like missionaries are going to a hard place. They’re going to be alone, they’re, they’re going to find different worldviews. And they need to be blessed and prayed for so churches who are sending to bless them and to commission them even. And then actually, I think one of the responses I see churches have sometimes is to sort of coddle the students and protect them. But I would say this is an important time of life that churches can walk alongside and actually encourage them to engage the culture. Because when they’re in college is actually a unique space in time where they can learn what it is to engage with different worldviews if they’re Christian, if they have that background. Know what it’s like to even argue or or defend their faith, and then know what it’s like to win someone towards the faith, right. And so I think if churches can actually encourage that cultural and campus engagement, encourage students to join a club on campus, you know, do things like that. So I think of churches and come alongside that would serve students really well.
Heidi Wong: I couldn’t, we couldn’t have this conversation without talking about Gen Z without talking about social media. Yeah. So especially in the last Two years, with a pandemic, everything going online and becoming hybrid in your physician, and just I’m sure you’ve engaged with a lot of people, and use social media yourself. How have you seen social media been an asset in the life of InterVarsity? And I know there’s a lot of pitfalls with that. But if you could maybe just highlight some of the good things that have come about the last couple of years.
Tom Lin: Yeah, one of the new opportunities we see is that and it’s crucial is that students before they go to campus, they’ve already met people. So it used to be before social media used to be you go on campus in the first week of camp, first week at school, you meet everybody. Now, actually, and I have a daughter who’s a senior in high school right now. So she’s going to college next year. And in March, she already has tons of friends going to that same school that she doesn’t know, but she met them on Instagram, right? So it’s important if churches want to engage students before they come. Get them connected to them on social media. If students are if churches are sending students, encourage them, connect with people on the campus, they’re going to or maybe a church nearby, they’re on via Instagram or social media. So I think that’s one piece that I would say is very crucial is when you’re thinking about outreach, no, don’t wait for the physical outreach when they get to school, utilize social media. So that’s a positive. I think another positive is delivering content, obviously, I mean, so for students who want to stay connected to their home church, and what’s going on, obviously, utilizing that as a tool and sharing content, what’s going on the community. Now there is the flip side, though, there’s the danger, which is students will often have FOMO, and actually miss their community so much that they have trouble detaching. And that in attaching to a local campus, church or campus community, right, and so we do want to encourage them, they’ve got to let go. And, and I find that’s one of the big struggles with Gen Z is they’re still connected to multiple communities. And so they can’t fully be present on campus and have actual college student experience.
Heidi Wong: Yeah, that makes sense. You mentioned conversation, some opportunities that exist now, that didn’t exist before. I’m just curious if you if there are any things in your experience in your current role, or previous roles, where I guess for me, like the social media component when I was in school was not a thing. We found out things through flyers and like announcements and email. So are there other things that even the local church can kind of be aware of and taken advantage of, to better support and walk alongside students, as you just mentioned?
Tom Lin: Yeah, I would say, maybe one change, but I don’t know if it’s positive or negative. But it’s important to keep in mind is that you have more students who come from completely unchurched backgrounds, sometimes that’s a good thing without kind of church history. They’re learning about Christ for the first time from scratch, so they don’t carry any baggage. Yeah. So there’s pride, but it doesn’t mean reorienting our evangelism strategies, or how do we share the Gospel? Because you can’t assume someone has a church background. So that’s, that’s a shift, right? Another thing about this generation is, you know, I don’t know if it’s bad or good, but they’re busier than ever and pragmatic, very pragmatic. So I would say, don’t assume that a student would be willing to take a 30 minute public transportation trip to your church, right? You’ve got to go to them. If you want to engage them, you’ve got to go to them or encourage them to join in on campus ministry. Because I think they’re so busy. And they’re so they’re wired and where they’re so pragmatic, unless there’s some special thing that draws them, they’re not going to do it. So you need to meet them where they’re at. Right? That’s a great opportunity, though. I actually, I love it when churches actually, if churches want to get involved in campus ministry, I love it when they do it on campus, because that’s exactly what we do in InterVarsity is we believe the best place to meet students is in their real life contexts. We don’t want to pull them out from their reality and bring them somewhere that’s not their daily reality, who want to meet them where they’re out. So I do think that’s an opportunity for churches as well.
Heidi Wong: I’m curious if you notice any regional differences east west, sort of north south, in your experience in your current role, in terms of like unique challenges? And maybe how InterVarsity or, you know, you’ve seen local churches kind of respond to these challenges in these kind of localized areas.
Tom Lin: Yeah, there are there are some, I mean, again, generalities, but certainly, in the west and northeast, you’re dealing with much more post Christian cultures, some places that are more hostile to Christianity, hostile towards what Christians believe and so so it is a battle I think that those ministry He’s tend to either fortify they’d kind of are in defensive mode and try to either disappear. So like, no one knows what they’re doing, you know, just so they hope no one notices and criticizes them. Or they’ll engage in heart issues, you know? So in the air of human sexuality, how do you live out your faith in a way that honors the Lord, when everyone on your campus believes something different? Right, and being able to so those those ministries in those areas of the country I see people either having to live counter culturally, you know, or they might be tempted to get sucked in, in essentially adopt what the local culture has, right. So it’s a struggle, I still see areas in the south today where it’s still somewhat of a Christian culture, even though again, people would say, oh in Gen Z, the nuns are rising and everything. Still generally there are places in the south that are still in the Midwest, they’re still fairly friendly, or at least welcoming and accepting of Christian ministries. And so in those places, often we’re engaging with church people versus and in the west and northeast, we’re engaging unchurched people. So there’s some differences like that, as well.
Heidi Wong: Makes sense. You know, myself being in like the New York City context, there’s a lot of students that are both from the East Coast, like the northeast, but they all come from all over the place. And one thing I’ve noticed is that they’re much sharper than I was when I was a student, and they have a lot of good questions, and they are growing up. And there was a talk earlier about how one of the panelists was talking about how students in today’s generation, both youth and college, are growing up with the language of accountability and holding leaders to account and that sort of being part of their inherent culture. Whereas for me, even, you know, you know, when I was in school, that wasn’t necessarily a thing. So for anyone who has a heart for college students and wants to go into, you know, serving in InterVarsity, or pursuing something in that area, how would you encourage them? Or what would you kind of have them consider as their you’re thinking about this calling, but also understanding sort of the climate and the culture that we’re in today?
Tom Lin: Yeah. Well, firstly, I think it’d be fantastic. I encourage lots of people to go into campus ministry, I think reaching college students is the most strategic area of life you could focus on, because students are making choices that determine the direction in their lives, right. Yeah, I think the accountability thing, you know, another way to put it is actually, they’re looking for people to actually live out what they believe or what they preach, right. And that’s not a bad thing. We want pastors who preach something to live it out themselves and their lives, right. You know, maybe the difference is, not only do they care about him, or they have tools to perhaps enforce it more, you know, they can find out things here. And then certainly, information shared quite a bit. So going into any ministry, I would say campus ministry included, I would encourage people to think carefully, because if it’s a calling from love, just remember, you’re entering a world where you will face criticism, potentially, right? You get critiqued for a lot of things. I’m actually going to talk about that. Some more at this conference, but you will get critiqued, so to be ready for that have thick skin. But then don’t see it as a bad thing. I mean, people will. They want to keep accounting because they want to see Christ and Christian, they want to see Christians live out a life worthy of Christ. And that’s really what they want in the end. So yeah, but it’s an issue we see today. And I don’t think it’s that difficult to have, you know, kind of overcome though. And I hope that ministers are paying attention people in ministry, that they do have accountability for themselves, that they have support structures for themselves so that they don’t kind of fall into traps that would get them into trouble.
Heidi Wong: Right? Makes sense. I’m curious just personally, so for yourself, I’m always learning new words and phrases from students or just like the way they see the world sometimes it’s just so different from the way I see the world and you know, how I use my vernacular so curious for you. Obviously, University is a large organization, there’s many different branches. There’s student leaders, their staff, how do you keep your ear to the ground like given your position? And, and understand and really like, immerse yourself in the regional differences? Are there cultural differences that you see? Yep. Just curious.
Tom Lin: Yeah. I mean, it’s fairly simple. I spend time with them. You know, I think if you’re a church leader, and you want to know what’s going on, college students spend time with them. I visit students who are meeting together I hang out with them, I take them out for meals, I get to know their lives, then you hear the language, you know. And so and you’ll find out things like you know, a common language or common thing they talk about all The time is their anxiety and their fears. It’s a fearful generation, you get the all you have to do is hang out with them for a day and you, you hear the trauma, the anxiety, the fears that they have, right? So I find it really helpful. So that’s one thing I do is spending time directly with them. Certainly. I also find social media does help, you can get a sense of what they’re talking about and what they care about. You know, you can get go down rabbit holes, too. So it’s not always good. And then you know, the age old, there are things of this generation, but people are people. And so we still need to remember that not Not, not every single person is going to fit the mold that you think. So, again, we have to get to know each individual and each student will have different struggles even so we’ve got to spend that time.
Heidi Wong: One thing you just mentioned was the language and like prevalence of just being open about talking about mental health issues and anxiety. And even for me, I’m actually very shocked sometimes about how open students are about just telling me, oh, yeah, I’m seeing a therapist or going to go get counseling. And in a sense, it’s a good thing that they’re able to, especially as Asian Americans, because my church context is majority Asian American, for them to not have any shame about that and seeking out the help that they need. At the same time. It can lead to a sense of fragility, and not a really strong sense of self and identity, even if someone’s a Christian. So has there been anything in InterVarsity as an organization where from a training standpoint, you sort of shifted the focus or just are emphasizing things now that used to not emphasize as much in the past or and like trying to get ahead of where you see the needs of this generation?
Tom Lin: That’s a great question. I think we attack it from both sides. So on one, and how do we come alongside students who are struggling with mental health, anxiety, fear, I think anyone administrated college students today needs to understand basics of mental health. 30 years ago, if if someone had a mental problem, we probably would have just referred them to a professional right away. Now, you can’t afford to do that. Because everyone pretty much struggle. So you need a baseline knowledge, you need base. So we do in a way to train our staff, or students we talk about, in a way you should know how to what the basics of what to do, how do you? How do you talk to someone about their anxiety, you know, when you pray for them, and you kind of when is it a spiritual warfare and you pray that it has out when is it just normal? You know, so so we’ve got to have some baseline understanding of it. So I think that’s one side coming alongside them. And then, of course, in very serious cases, like, hey, yeah, talk to your therapist about that, you know, I’ll talk to you about different things, you know, you keep working on that. On the other end, it can lead to paralysis. And that’s a problem. So when we want to call students or encourage them to take risks for Jesus, right, or to do hard things, to go reach an unreached people group on the other side of the world, those are scary things. And if students are already scared, what does that mean that they’re all going to say? No, because they’re fragile, right? So I think we do need at the same time to challenge this generation, in risk taking, and courage perhaps more than recent generations. They’re just they’re so risk averse, it’s, it’s a very, it’s documented a very risk averse generation. So we’re gonna have to jump following Jesus is inherently risky. There’s, it’s inherently costly. It’s inherently dangerous at times. So. So I think those are things that we also try to build into our discipleship. So I think this would be a few things.
Heidi Wong: I’m just curious if there’s an anecdote, or maybe a generality. And you mentioned you’re spending time with students taking them out for meals, hearing, you know what they’re talking about, if there’s been like, a moment or just a thought you’ve had about wow, that really encouraged me like, they don’t even know that they ministered to me in that moment.
Tom Lin: Yeah. That’s a great question. I could share. Maybe I’ll share some real stories. So a negative and a positive. I was at UT Austin University, Texas, Austin a few months ago and speaking to a group of students or Asian American students, I took them out for some Korean food afterwards. We had great it was like 10pm Great Korean food together. And, and I forget, I said, What are your challenges today? And they said, they were seniors. They said, these young younger students, no one wants to lead. So tell me more. They said, well, first of all, we had a pandemic. And so none of them have even really been led in person. So they don’t really know how to lead. That’s probably why I was like, Oh, that’s interesting. That might be one reason why. And then I said, Well, what else do you think? And they said, well, they struggle with mental health and anxiety. And so they’re really scared to lead. And so they prefer not to, you know, Okay, what else is They said, Well, they’re very busy. And they’re not always consistent in being able to participate in ministry. So they also can’t lead, you know, because they’re too busy. And they just just in that conversation, they gave me three things already just in that food, you know, that meal conversation. And even though they were lamenting, then I could thank those students who actually did have the courage to lead and thank them for their leadership, even though they were paying costs themselves, right. But it gives me a window into the real life challenges today, right? The student generation. So on the flip side, I’ll say, I was at Harvard campus in February, speaking to a group of students for a weekend I was at the retreat, and we had a great time. So I’ll and I would just so encourage these Harvard students, not too busy to take a weekend, to worship the Lord together about 70 Asian American students, were shooting the Lord together, several people were non believers in the odd in the group. And as a result of retreat, two of the students came to faith for the first time, they made a decision for Christ for the first time. And it was students who share the gospel with their friends, you know. And so what I always tell people, no matter what the generation is, no matter what the challenges are, the gospel will go for students, especially because they can speak the language of their generation students will always be able to share the gospel with their fellow students. And God will always work in their hearts. And so even if people say, Oh, they’re so non religious, or this or that their mental health, whatever, people are still coming to Christ. And so we saw two people come to Christ meeting there and and I actually asked them about their leadership. And they said, Yeah, it was a hard year, we only had eight leaders. And that’s not a lot for a group of 70. And, but then they said, but next year, we have 20 new student leaders coming I was like, that’s awesome, you know, and so there’s always these bright spots. You know, God is at work and I tell people, don’t lose hope there might be challenges in general, but God is still at work. It’s amazing.
Heidi Wong: I’m not sure on time, but um selfishly I’m so I’m half Korean, half Chinese. Okay. And I think growing up, that wasn’t very normal, I never really met another half Korean half Chinese person till like two years ago. And I think just with the demographic of the states moving in a certain direction, there’s probably gonna be more people that are like half this half that are third this Asian, Filipino, Japanese, Korean Chinese. With that sort of in mind, what makes you excited about the future of like young people in the States, especially Asian Americans? Who have these multiple, I guess, like ethnic identities, and the reason why I’m asking this question is, you know, as an Asian American, if you’re a Korean American, for example, you have certain conference, they talked about, like, the challenges that that brings, operating in a majority white culture and then trying to be white, but then also trying to be Korean and other cultures and settings. For me, I felt like that, but like, times two, because it’s like, okay, the Korean see me as Chinese, Chinese see me as like Korean, but I’m American, and I grew up here. So there’s a lot of that, but there’s also a lot of cool opportunities. And just being able, I am reminded of that verse, I can remember where Paul talks about trying to become everything right for the sake of Christ. And when you are not just ethnically, but just where you’re from and moving to a new city, you’re able to kind of be more relatable, or really just like relate to more kinds of people. So yeah, if there’s anything in the next 10 to 20 years that you’re super excited about, for the future of like the Asian American generation, in the States.
Tom Lin: Well, great question. So my daughters are half Chinese, half Korean also, and this generation will see many more multiracial or biracial people and, and it’s wonderful. And we’re seeing that in our Asian American ministries across the country right now, the fellowship, I talked to you about it, UT Austin, and a Harvard, all sorts of different Asian Americans, some that are multiracial, some that are Korean American, some of their Chinese, Taiwanese American, South Asian, Southeast Asian. What’s exciting is actually I think there’s a huge opportunity in southeast Southeast Asian ministry growth, Signet, significant growth opportunity. I think there’s significant growth opportunity for the biracial, multiracial as well, because folks like you are people who are kind of in between, like, they need a home as well. Right. So, so really excited about the potential for that. I don’t think it’ll be actually I think more and more terms, like first generation, second generation, those will be less used. It’ll be more multiracial kind of conversations. It’s exciting because I do think what, what the church needs today in its witness, and how we can, how we can, how we need to engage the culture today. is to cross cultures even more. Right? And so people have a multiracial background. They’ve been living in multiple cultures all their lives and they’re well equipped for it. So I’m excited about that. I think they’re well equipped to engage first second third generation folks. You know, people have multiple races. I mean, so I think that’s a great opportunity. Not easy, but it’s a great opportunity.