What do you think of when you see the phrase “Asian American?” Do we think mostly about the children of East Asian immigrants? What about the children of immigrants from Indonesia? The Philippines? India?
In this wide-ranging conversation, Pastor Steve Chang of the SOLA Network discusses the idea of Asian American-ness with Sam George, the catalyst for diasporas for India for the Lausanne movement. George has lived, studied, and taught all over the world, and his knowledge and experiences with interacting with Christians all over the world give us a powerful perspective on the unity provided by the Gospel and our Asian heritage.
He also shared about the unique history and culture of Indian Christians, with fascinating insights for all Christians to learn about. We hope you enjoy their conversation and see the Gospel in a new, powerful, global way.
Editor’s Note: Below is an automated transcript of their conversation. There may be typos and other discrepancies from the video. You can listen to the audio here.
Steve Chang: Hey, SOLA Network. My name is Steve Chang. I’m here with Sam George, and I’m so privileged because Sam currently works as the Catalyst for Diasporas for India for the Lausanne movement.
He is a former engineer, which we have in common. He received his degrees at Fuller, Princeton, and eventually got his PhD from Liverpool Hope University in theology, researching the family church and the diaspora. He helped pioneer two organizations, the Urban India Mission and Parivar International. He teaches global migration, Diaspora missions, and world Christianity, and he has authored several books. His latest book is “Journeys of Asian Diaspora: Mapping Originations and Destinations.” He also authored a couple of books on South Asian groups. One is interestingly called, “Understanding the Coconut Generation.” So hey, Sam, I want to welcome you.
Sam George: Thank you, Pastor Steve. Hello, friends at SOLA Network. Glad to be with you this afternoon, morning, or whenever you’re hearing this. Thank you pastor for the opportunity.
Steve Chang: Yes. Now, it says that you are the catalyst for diasporas for India for the Lausanne Movement? What does that mean?
Sam George: My title is Catalyst for Diasporas for the global church. I serve the global church. Every area of concentration or research or mission interests within Lausanne is called an issue group. So the global church is divided into 12 geographical regions, and we have some 30 areas of focus of mission and one of them is diaspora. And every time Lausanne had a global gathering, there are certain areas of focus of interest that the global church embraces, and we see lots of momentum. So diaspora was a new area of focus at the last Congress, in 2010, in Cape Town, South Africa. Over the last 11 years or so there has been tremendous movement. Because when people move, it shapes and reshapes Christianity.
So we study how migration is important to the story of Christianity, and what God is doing with people and among people, and especially people who are on the move. So that’s kind of my area of research—helping the church globally, to understand and you know, why migration is important to Christianity and mission.
I’m part of the Indian diaspora. My roots are in India. My parents were there, I grew up outside, I traveled around quite a bit. I lived in five different countries, speak five languages, I get around around the world quite a bit with travel. I teach at five different universities in Asia, Africa, Europe, North America, and Central America. So kind of teacher one place in the region, more than going to teach, I’m going to learn. I learn a lot from my students. And so this month I’m in Korea and India, and next month, next quarter, I’m teaching in Singapore.
Steve Chang: Okay. Fantastic. And you’re way smarter than me?
Sam George: No, no, no, we are all on the same trying to figure out what God is doing in the world and how to be part of that.
Steve Chang: So Sam, you were saying that the concept of the Diaspora now Lausanne looked at different geographical regions, as you know, areas of focus. But Lausanne was thinking and you’re thinking that instead of just thinking of geographical regions, we have to think about people as they move? And so they might be in different regions, but really we have to think about them as a common group of commonalities. Is that what you’re saying?
Sam George: Yeah, I think there are threefold kind of focus. Lausanne has a region. So the world is divided by region. So Asia is divided into East Asia, Southeast Asia and Middle East and North Africa. So we have regions like that geographical regions, that still matters.
But then we have issue groups, which is largely thematically organized. So you know, we have moralities and issue groups, you know, you know, we are focusing on cities, you know, urban reality. So that’s kind of global. So all these groups, we have a global responsibility.
So when I go to Australia, I work with the region in Oceania and Australian Regional Director. So we have regional directors for each of the 12 regions. And then I am the catalyst. So I work with all the regional director when it comes to migration and diaspora. And then we have the third region with younger leaders. We are intentionally nurturing younger leaders in our community. So all of us have, we teach in school or seminary, we also work with younger leaders, 20-30 years younger than us, and nurturing them and discipling them one on one, and have a group of people whom we can nurture as scholars and future leaders for the global church. So kind of a threefold focus. So my area is a catalyst for migration diaspora, and in my area studies world Christianity.
Steve Chang: Okay, thank you. Um, you know, you and I have talked about this and your latest book, the journeys of Asian diaspora, you know, and it’s in you told me, it’s three volumes and volume one just came out, next volume will come out next April, and volume three will come out at the end of next year, I believe, or something.
Sam George: Ah, August or so, July or August, you should come up next year.
Steve Chang: Okay. And thank you so much. And we’ll put a link of that volume one at least. But you talked about the Asian diaspora out. And you talked about Asia, geographically in five different regions. Can you describe each one of those regions and their primary influences?
Sam George: Yeah, so you know, you know, Lausanne divides, as you know, East Asia is largely Japan, Korea, China, you know, and Hong Kong and Taiwan, and all of this region largely. And then Southeast Asia is Philippines, Malaysia, Indonesia, Singapore, you know, close to Cambodia, Myanmar—all of that region is Southeast Asia. So each of that has a regional director.
The East Asia director is my good friend in Taiwan. We have somebody in Thailand who coordinates and Malaysia who coordinates Southeast Asia. We have a regional director is based in the city of Chennai—he looks after India, Nepal, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh and that region
Then we have, you know, kind of Central Asia, Middle East, and North Africa, all of which are separate regions, because Asia is very huge. And there’s nothing common, you know, at a continental level, it has lots and lots of unique cultures, religious background, its history, and particularly history of Christianity, how it came to these regions. So those stories are varied. And you know, the complexity of these regions, and the population is huge. And diversity is very huge. And all of that is, you know, so we needed to have many regions, and all of us collaborate and work together.
So we just competed two weeks ago at the Asia Congress, which was the Lausanne Asia Conference. It was online, of course, because of the COVID restrictions so we couldn’t host it. But we came together from across Asia. So I live in Chicago, but am quite involved with the work in Asia. I teach at several seminaries in Asia. So I get around there, to Asia and region quite a bit.
But I also go to Africa, I study about African diaspora. African diaspora is huge. I mea Africa is the most Christian continent now. And Africa is the youngest continent, when young people and Christian faith in the mobility comes as a result.
And so we say, “If you’re a Christian, you will travel. If you travel, you will become a Christian” because most of the migrants of the world are Christians when you get uprooted and go. Bbut we also see an increase in crisis of, you know, I mean, the refugee crisis.
I’m a migrant. I went abroad to study I went abroad to work, I went abroad to build business, I understand that facet of things ministry missions, traveled to 100 plus countries. So I understand cross cultural global engagement and missionary work, business and travel. I never understood the refugee issue. I was never forced out of my country. I lived in different countries have different passports, you know, different ways.
When I took over in 2016 My role as the capitalist for the Lausanne Movement and able to speak to the whole global church, I wanted to study and understand this phenomenon. So I brushed aside, I put on my research hat and then went to one city in Germany. So that month that Germany has just accepted 1 million refugees to come in. This is out of the city and the Iraqi refugee and water crisis. And God just opened my eyes to see what God is doing even in the most.what the Chancellor of Germany called The greatest humanitarian crisis on the planet is facing.
So I met with the government officials, local churches, state churches, refugee camps. I went and lived in refugee camp in Turkey and, and Greece and criss crossed entire Europe, then went to Africa went to middle east several countries, just studying the phenomenon. And I ended up doing a book called The refugee diaspora mission in the midst of greatest humanitarian crisis. So Miriam and I, another friend of ours, she’s missiologists, in Seattle Pacific University. And so we together edited a volume, and telling the story about the refugee crisis from Iraq and Syria, Lebanon, and Turkey, and Greece, and Germany, and England, and Canada, and America, and Brazil, and Africa. And so it is a fascinating collection of stories about how God is at work, even in what we call as a greatest humanitarian crisis, but as just a painful reality, when forcefully displaced people, but God is able to work even through that. And then subsequently, there was a documentary film that we generated to create awareness among churches and Christians to know about the refugee crisis and how they can be involved with it.
Steve Chang: Okay, so you’re talking about the Far East Asia, Southeast Asia, South Asia, which includes India and Pakistan, Central Asia, a lot of the Stan countries and the West Asia or Near East. And one of the things I guess you’re seeing right now is one of the greatest humanitarian crisis we have ever known all the refugee people who are migrating out of some of these countries or whether it be Lebanon, Iraq. Now Afghanistan, like they are technically refugees from Asia.
Sam George: Yes, yes. Because Asian continent spans from Japan all the way to Mediterranean coasts. So Israel as part of Asia, right, because Galletti is Asian religion. Yeah, yeah. Asia, see, Jesus was an Asian. So when I don’t know if you, you know, this is a history about, you know, North American history.
When the Asian Exclusion Act began, you know, Asians were banned from America, you know, because of the Chinese Exclusion Act was expanded to Asian. And so there was this noble law rich, Indian novel laureate, Rabindranath Tagore, he visited America, because you know, he’s a great poet, literary scholar, very highly respected and won the Nobel Prize. And so America won. So universities are inviting him.
And so he comes to an American university, I think it was in Boston, somewhere, must be Harvard, or somewhere for a year. And so he, you know, press, US press wants to interview him and talk to him. And he makes a very sarcastic comment, because an Asian exclusion law is in place in America. And he said, so even Jesus would not be welcomed in America, because Jesus was an Asian.
So sometimes we think Asian rhetorics is largely East Asian, and, you know, Korean and Chinese and, you know, kind of that is the dominant rhetoric because Chinese have a long history of migration into America. And, and the Japanese, you know, community was large and big until the Second World War.
But the difference about the Asian is, I studied in England and I worked with, you know, churches and seminaries there in England, when they say British Asians, they means Indians. Because Asian is the Indians are the dominant group in Asia, because India was a British colony. And you know, lots of Indians came there and English in India speaks, you know, there are most people speaking English in India, than England, Scotland, Ireland, Canada, US, Australia, all put together.
So, English is a very common language in India. And so, you know, so lots of people went there to study work there, you know, part of the British economy, several elected officials, some of the richest people in England are all Indians. And so Indians are the dominant group, so they call British Asians.
And when you come here, I studied in California, I lived in California, Asian American, always thinks about East Asian, right? So, when I go to England, I say that if you call yourself as British Asian, please include our Chinese brothers and sisters and Koreans and Filipinos, because you’ve gotta be inclusive of everyone if you call yourself as Asian!
Because I lived in China, I lived in Hong Kong and traveled to Japan and Korea and so I said, Okay, you got to include I know brothers and sisters who are pastors just here in the city. And I’ll always invite my Chinese friends to come be a part of the, you know, British Asian gathering.
And so when I come to California and say East Asian, you know, you are you Asian? Do you not understand what Asia is, have you traveled across Asia? And you know, so you need to include Asians and even West Asians, right, if you really call yourself as Asian Americans, because there are many people from Pakistan and Nepal and Iran, Iran, Asia, you know, sometimes this this narrow, parochial view, you know, we all have a geographical sensibility get expanded, when they include other people and be more inclusive. So actually true to the titles that we carry as Asian Americans.
Steve Chang: Right. So now let me ask you, Dr. George, now, SOLA, you know, we were supposed to be a gospel centered voice for the Asian Americans. And obviously, just a phrase itself, Asian American, the title itself has a lot of limitations, you know, what do we mean by America? Well, what about those in Canada? This doesn’t mean North America. What about those and in Australia, you know, would they, if they, if their languages, English, etc, but why should Asian Americans, so those who are thinking about Asia diaspora, why should they think more broadly and include the South Asians as well as the central and with West Asians? Why is that necessary? What’s the advantage?
Sam George: I think I’ve been several things, I think, in America, those that come to America, as always reference continental level, you know, African Americans, you know, Latin American and South Americans. And so the continent will reference point. And Asian American is a broad category, that includes even Pacific Islanders, as broad as that API, you know, that becomes the category by which America sees us census report sees us the more dominant culture thesis. So that’s one reason second, I think, you know, there is a lot of commonality across Asia. You know, civilization early, Buddhism began in India become a dominant faith in in East Asia and Southeast Asia. And we also have a lot of cultural similarity, family orientation, religious city, community orientation, cultural values are much more common and similar. worker takes, you know, our passion for family and children, so a lot of commonality. But most importantly, I will say Christian faith, Christian faith is inclusive. I don’t have to become so ethnocentric Christian, a cultural Christian Christianity, my faith calls me to embrace brothers and sisters from all parts of the world. It is best said in the statement by an African theologian that I love and appreciate. He said, If you belong to Christ, you belong to everyone who belong to Christ. So I must grow in my understanding of my Christian faith. I have brothers and sisters in every country of the world today. And because, you know, I’m in 2010, I have the great privilege to be part of the Luzon Congress in Cape Town, South Africa. Christianity today call it as the most representative Christian gathering in the history of Christianity. By 2010, we literally have a Christian in every country of the world today, every geopolitical entity. So that means there are Christians everywhere. It is not just my four walls of the church, few 100 people that I worship with on Sunday morning, we have a family that is truly global, in every nook and corner of the planet. And so if I belong to Christ, I also belong to these people who belong to Christ. So they understand that we have a truly global and at least an Asian level, you know, Japanese Christians and Chinese Christians and Koreans and Filipinos and Hmong Christians and Laotians and Cambodians and Indonesians and Indians and Iranians and Lebanese. And I think we have lots of differences, but also a lot of things that can bind us together as a common people, and especially because of the Christian faith. That shouldn’t be a common thing. And the task before us, what does it mean, the great diversity and not to divide us but as a strength to be engaged in mission and in turn involved in God’s work in the world and understanding church as a much more global entity and God’s people on God’s mission in the world. And that must be something that will unite us together across the differences of our geopolitical or passports or our ancestry, where it comes from.
Steve Chang: Okay, so the advantage that we have thinking of Asian Americans more broadly or more, technically properly, is that there are a lot that we share in common culture, you know, family oriented work, ethics, etc, etc. But you guys just cause us to think of ourselves more broadly. So although I may feel more tribal with other Korean Americans, but you know, if our experiences and our cultural background, that my background is very similar to, I share so much with the South Asian American IRA, be thinking of them as brothers and, and my experiences in your experiences might be so similar that they, if I think of, of the South Asians as us that there’s an advantage there for the gospel?
Sam George: Absolutely, absolutely. When I first came to America, 30 some years ago, I didn’t go to an Indian church, I went to a Chinese church. Because I was coming from Hong Kong. All my friends were Chinese. And then when I came to Southern California, I came to Pasadena, fuller, all my friends were Korean friends, was a Korean at that time, hardly any Indian. And then I went to East course, I was in Princeton seminary, and then again, lots of Koreans, and few Chinese and few Africans, you know, but then I’m just gonna say no, I mean, you know, all of that, you know, I mean, I had a good, you know, lots of wonderful friends, somebody by in your very name back in Korea, a very dear friend of mine, and I go to Korea, you know, involved with the work there. You know, lots of Chinese friends, doing research on Chinese in Chicago over 100 years. So kind of, yeah, so I’ve kind of moved around. And, of course, I grew up outside India, I grew up in a very multi ethnic, multi Asian kind of context. So you can then you know, travel and work, I used to oversee an entire business operation for Asia Pacific. So all the way from Fiji Islands, to Jordan was my business territory. And so I traveled across Asia and Pacific, for my business responsibility. My office was in California, but my region was Asia Pacific. And so all of that travel just exploded, in my mind and my heart to see Asia is much more broader, and much more inclusive, and my Christian faith kind of compels me to understand and comprehend the larger Christian community, and to be more inclusive of my brothers and sisters who are from a different ethnic and cultural and linguistic background.
Steve Chang: Okay, thank you. Um, now, you know, one of the things that I recently discovered, and maybe it’s not that recent, but is that even among the Asian American groups in America, that there’s a, obviously there’s a lot of differences. The average median income for an Asian American is actually higher than the median age for the white or the majority culture people. The median income for the Indian American is the highest of any other group. Can you I think, I know, but can you explain why and how maybe it is so different from the perception that we have of the poverty etc, that exist in India? And why maybe the Indians who are in America are representative of the difference?
Sam George: Yeah, no sure. Yeah. I mean, that’s a very good question to understand our community. Indians are around 5 million strong. It is the second largest after Chinese. You know, just fill it to 2020 census Filipinos to become number two community in the Asian Americans. So 1 million strong, 5 million strong. And, and this is the most educated and highest income group in America right now.
Steve Chang: Just curious. Okay. Right.
Sam George: Or everybody else is way high. You know, so highest so the kind of the, you know, if you see, largely it is because the immigration is very restrictive. Who comes to America is largely the cream of the cream from India. Our top engineering schools and medical schools and sciences and tech is where they’re coming in. And so American universities started targeting in the 80s people to bring them to the Graduate Studies here. And before that, it was the healthcare wave 1965 opened up the floodgates for Indians. Until then, we were not allowed much like Asians. Very few handful of Indians were here. 65 and 70s. were largely the healthcare industry. And there’s a large number of doctors and nurses in India and you know, there was a crisis year a lot of them came and a large share of them were Christians. You know, so more than half of the early migration were all Christians. Because much pay most of the people who went into the healthcare industry were Christians in India. So nurses and you know, having no young girls were allowed to go and pursue a field like nursing, only Christians will pursue a field like nursing and doctors, because Hindu worldview calls that a young woman not to touch anybody else, or touch your blood or touch any kind of all of that is unclean. And so you know, young girls were not even encouraged to go to college and study or, you know, not nursing or healthcare health industry at all. Because the prospect of getting married, you know, future prospects, all of them are undermined by the preceding profession that causes you to touch other men, particularly. So there are a lot of religious baggage and religious beliefs that restricted people, Christianity was liberated, it encouraged young people to study, go to pursue any field that you want. And then a lot of education and health care were brought by missionaries from the west. And so a lot of them pursued education, they encourage young girls to go and study. And so they pursued education, a lot of nurses, they were not many hospitals. So 60s and 70s, there was a nursing crisis in America. Lots of nurses were brought in from Philippines, and also from India. And then 80s was the higher education wave. Some of the brightest Indian minds started coming in, they won Nobel Prizes, and science, inventions and space and physics and chemistry. And then 90s was the information technology boom, that began to happen to so now, you know, 20 years later, we see Microsoft CEO, President is India and Google Search chief is Indians, you know, hundreds of companies are headed by Indians. And so they are the brightest minds from India brought in here. So by virtue of that, the work ethics, bright minds, opportunity that America gave, they climb to the top, and they make them very, very wealthy. And the second reason is also Indian households are dual income, dual professional income. So two people working in professional fields in high tech fields in finance, science, technology, computers, managerial careers and business. Many of them will quit soon, and then start their own businesses. So unlike Chinese who were mostly trading China, Koreans were somewhat professionals, but I think Indians were largely high end professionals, and they became high income groups in America.
Steve Chang: That’s fascinating.
Sam George: Also the highest educated, most number of PhDs and MDs and graduate studies in Memorial communities in the US right now falls within the Indian Americans.
Steve Chang: I was talking with the doctor friend, he’s saying that the Indians are taking over the medical fields. But, but yeah, one thing that I learned just from you is that because of the Hindu culture, girls were not allowed to touch bodies and things of that nature. So they were discouraged, not only from being educated, but also from pursuing any kind of health care professions. But like, it’s Christians who encouraged all of that. And so a lot of the, the men and women who pursued health care, were Christians, and a lot of the ones who came to the United States and not only educated health care workers, early on, but they were also Christians. Is that what you’re saying? That I did not know that.
Sam George: So back in India, you know, Christians constitute technically two and a half 3% of population of India, India has a huge population, you know, one point, you know, 3 million billion people. And that’s a huge country, you know, large population. And so Christianity is probably 75, to, you know, 80,000,003% of serve. So it’s a very small percentage. But in America, almost 20% of Indians are Christians. So 5 million Christian Indians in America, out of that 1 million are Christians. And there are some 1500 churches, almost there’s a church in every state in the US, Alaska, to Hawaii, everywhere else. But unlike the East Asians, the gateway of entrance for Indians have been New York. So they’ve been coming the westward, and kind of the, you know, coming through the city of New York, and so New York has a large number of churches, just like Korean Americans will be Southern California, or Chinese will be in San Francisco, whatever that is, I think for Indians. It is New York City, New York, New Jersey, Philadelphia. That is kind of the gateway for Indian migration. Was 65.
Steve Chang: Okay, okay. Yeah.
Sam George: So one out of five Indians in America are Christians
Steve Chang: Would you say there’s a greater percentage of Christians or Korean Christians in America than in Korea? I mean, I’ve heard that too. Oh, yeah.
Sam George: You know, 80 to 85% of Koreans in America, Christians back in Korea is 25 to 30% of Koreans and Christians back in South Korea.
Steve Chang: So the Indian Americans now is it because now can I ask where they are already Christians? And they came? Or did they come and become Christians? Buddhists?
Sam George: Yeah. But, you know, so by virtue of migration, a lot of the early Christians and Christians are much more kind of in a migratory and higher education and opportunity. So we find a good number of Christians are more likely to migrate. But also many Hindus and Sikhs, people who wear a turban, and a lot of them have turned to Christ, here in America. Because sometimes, you know, I mean, the Hindu worldview sometimes does not hold ground, in that kind of a modern Western world. See, remember, I mean, Hinduism says not to travel, you’re supposed to live and die in a place close to where you’re born. If you left your native land, or you become polluted, and because all the sacred rivers are in India, you had to go back and die, you know, remains has to be floated on the holy Ganges purification rights are only available there. Every migrant when they return back to India, you had to go through special rituals and you know, poojas, and, and you know, rituals to enter back into the temple or enter into the house and eat a meal with your family. Because you are outcasts, literally, you’re outcasts, if you’re migrated out, because you’re broken the law of what we call as color panning, black waters across the waters. And so it’s a migrant resistance society. Nobody wanted to travel. So ancient history, many, many nations, Arabs, and Jews and Africans and Greek and Chinese have come to India for centuries. But Indians will never travel out. Because the Hindu worldview is very, very restrictive. So we are supposed to live close to where you are born. And when the father dies, the son is supposed to live the funeral pyre. So generations were bound together to a geography. So it’s like a patriarchal ancestral worship. Some of those East Asian cultures in China that we see by generations are bound to a geography, right. But migration breaks the bondage, and displacement breaks the bondage. And when you come to Western countries, you’re comparing and contrasting some of the values and beliefs. Does it hold ground in a foreign country? Sometimes it does not. So many, many Indians who are migrated outside have embraced Christian faith in foreign countries.
Steve Chang: I see. That’s another thing I did not know. So the very fact that when you find an Indian, in America or anywhere else in the world, the very fact that they’ve migrated out shows that they’ve at least opened their minds to a different worldview. And so they’re more ripe for the gospel.
Sam George: They’re very open by just that those who came to America, particularly a very educated people. So you just need to be mindful, they’re a little philosophical, they’d like to argue, but you know, many of them are open to the Gospel. And they don’t find an option to go back began to having to endure all the rituals. And you know, you know, but of course, Indian Americans are seen as very successful, wealthy and achieved much, including our vice president of our country. She’s half Indian, right. And so all of that success, success orientation is big, especially among Indian immigrants. So some of these religious values or they themselves they have, they will be the first one to throw out all these religious beliefs. And they don’t believe in all this, but deep down inside, there’s a sense that my soul is polluted. I need cleansing. If the gospel can come in, you know, Christianity is not bound to a geography. We don’t leave. We don’t, you know, worship a place. You know, Mecca, Islam is again, geographically centered, we turn towards Mecca and pray. We do pilgrimages to Mecca, which is a required tenet of Islam. Hinduism is also grounded and rooted and imprisoned to a geography. Christianity is not bound to a place, or a culture or a language. We worship the person of Christ, who is Son of God, and so that our center of our faith is Jesus. And He rose again, he’s not buried in a place in Jerusalem, you might do Holyland trips, but we are not bound to a geography because He’s alive. He’s a living person moving about, and God is on the move, and that’s why we move and so understanding our Christian faith From a migratory lens, it is so liberal. Yeah. And we are tied to the person of Jesus Christ. Nine, not to a land, not to a culture. That’s why we translate our Bible. Because scripture is translatable. Christian faith is transportable all because, you know, it is no no holy language. Of course somewhere in Korea I have heard when you go to heaven will be speaking Korean. But when I go to Latin America, they say is in the Spanish. When I come to Kerala, my ancestral homeland they say Malayalam that is the language of Heaven. And then somebody in China said, you know, I haven’t should be speaking Mandarin. So everybody thinks party, no, I haven’t will speak all the languages, right? Revelation says, you know, I saw the great multitude from every nation, every language and culture and people and nations. So Christianity is a multi ethnic, multicultural, global faith. We are tied to the person of Christ, and not to a language not to a sacred language, we have no sacred language or languages or sacred. Jesus chose to incarnate, enter into the world, and come alive in every language, every culture, through men and women who chosen and committed their allegiance to this Jesus Christ.
Steve Chang: Amen. Thank you so much. Um, no, I want to maybe ask one last question. I know I’ve gone longer than I had anticipated, but I’m learning so much. I’m in school right now.
Sam George: This is all my migration fund, right? This is my, you know, diaspora things I’ve written about it, you know, I did, yeah.
Steve Chang: They were described, you know, scratching the surface, one of the unique needs of the Indians who migrate to the United States. And the reason why you can have a call center in India, as opposed to in China or Korea is that Indians, English is like a national language or, and so Indians come fluent in English, as opposed to the Chinese or Koreans, etc. What does that impact? And I know, one, one of the things that allows you to be more educated quickly, you know, it’s assimilate quick, more quickly, in terms of jobs and things of that nature. How does that impact an Indian ability to assimilate? Or there’s still this, this wall? Yeah, that Yeah. What so what does an Indian immigrant experience and how is that different from other Asians who come?
Sam George: Yeah, I mean, as much as we say Indians, educated, wealthy, educated, you know, that’s kind of definitely the profile. But that doesn’t mean it’s a model minority. There are many people who have a very, very difficult reality of struggles of immigration, you know, but language is a strength for Indians, you know, unlike Korea, I mean, India is not just one language country, India is So, huge and there are so many different languages. So, official languages itself is some 15 languages. So, if you count all the dialects and all, several 1000 languages are spoken in India. So, every Indian will speak two or three languages. So, our schooling system itself is a three language system. So, every you know, kid by the time they finished fifth grade, they know five three languages, some of them are very, very polyglot they 567 languages is common among many parts of India, many people, so, the language and then most of them, who study professional fields or go to college, all of them will end up learning things in English. So, English is one of the lungs. So, what we call as what legal and business language of India is, is English. We have a national language, which is Hindi, we have a regional language, which is you know, every state has their own region, then you’ll have your own mother tongue or the dialect that you speak. So, most Indians will have three or four languages skill minimum. So, they’re well versed in English. So, it is part of the British colonial legacy, you know, Ben Britain, you know, ruled India for some 200 some years, they left behind English and most of the people the clerical staff, the workers, the you know, work for the army, the military to the the administrators mechanism was completely managed by Indians and they were all learning English, just to work with the British. So, India has more people speaking English, then England and America and Canada all put together for 600 million Indians speak English, they will not speak Queen’s English or American accent, they have their own you know, accent and class you know, hybridization has happened English language with various Indian languages in India. So, those who speak Hindi and English there is something called a hybrid language called English. They blend these languages and speak mixed together like Korean and you know, Indian People mixed together or Chinese and so, you know, so that is a lot of you know, a lot of people speak English. So that in a way helps them because when they come to university or college, most of the undergrad they have done in English, they know the terms and definitions and they followed probably the same books as test books in their undergrad. So that kind of helps them know when they come as colleges or workplaces, in a sit in a meeting in a software company, you know, half of them are Indians anyway. And so they all you know, transact business, interact with them, take business from American companies and take them to India. So, you know, voice services to IT services to legal services to back office operations, and software testing much of the software is all in you know, English. And so, they definitely have a strong advantage to know but then they have the ability to adapt, they are quick to learn a language, if another language is thrown in front of them, they are picked already, because they already have learned 345 languages. And then when they use their computers they know for five languages and computers. And so when computers develop a new language, they are quick to learn before anybody else, and they’re able to develop solutions and applications on that software and that you know, application platform. So, just adaptability flexibility, diversity is part of the core value of Indian civilization and most Indian people. So, if you travel just 50 miles from where you are in India, you will hear a different language, you can’t understand anything, different customs, different food habits, different clothing, different celebrations, everything. So, India is very, very diverse, it is not just one country, in a way it is several 100 countries. And so all of that diversity kind of you know, is the strength and they understand and they adapt and you know, quick too quick to you know, learn and, you know, very flexible in their thinking. And all of that is very strong. It’s a strength for them when they come to a place like America, which is very diverse.
Steve Chang: Yeah, and learning still so much. And that the average Indian is very flexible, because they’ve had to, you know, the average person speaks minimally, at least three languages, especially if they’ve been educated. I don’t know if you’ve heard this, like, you know, what you call a person who speaks three languages.
Sam George: Trilingual, two languages, bilingual one language, American, yes.
Steve Chang: Yeah, I’m glad you have a sense of humor. I have so many more questions. You know, I’d love to maybe schedule another conversation with you, and maybe, you know, Jay Thomas, or someone else. And we can talk a little more for you to, I mean, there’s several key things that I learned today to help me better understand the Indian American. Also, what’s going on, around globally, why it’s important to partner or to, you know, to talk at least, and, and to help each other out for the sake of the gospel. So, thank you, Dr. George. I so appreciate you today. I’m looking forward to further conversation. Also, congratulations on your book, and I’m going to pick it up today. Okay.
Sam George: Yeah, thank you, Pastor Steve and, you know, the team at SOLA, appreciate the network and all that you do, and, you know, Korean community and the East Asian community strong, we need to continue to dialogue, learn, collaborate, work together, for the sake of the kingdom, and so many new opportunities ahead of us. We are living in an exciting time in the history of Christianity, and we have so much more to collaborate and work together. So thank you for the opportunity. Our blessings on you and the listeners, and those who work here on the SOLA network forecasting. Thank you very much.
Steve Chang: All right. Yeah. That was so fun. I learned so much. And, um, yeah, you know, like, the more I learned, the more I realized how much I don’t know.
Sam George: I mean, isn’t that how it is, you know, when we travel, when we meet people, there’s so much we can learn from each other. Somehow we get into the silos that we stay there, you know, you know, we thought we think we have we know everything we know, so low.
Steve Chang: Right. I was talking to someone from China partnership the other day, and how she was saying that, you know, and one of the things that they’re doing is that they’re trying to bring work and writings from the house church movement out in China and bring them to the English speaking world. And they’re publishing a bunch of things and we’re talking. But how still the perception out in the world is that knowledge and expertise even among Christianity, it flows from the west outwards, the you know, the other parts of the world.
Sam George: I think that that’s, you know that is changing. Now we say that a mission is not just from the west to the rest, you know, it’s from everywhere to everywhere. Right. And so I just wrote an endorsement this morning for a book about out of Africa, Africa to the rest. How Africa is rising as a mission force. Hmm. Remember, Africa is the largest Christian continent now? Wow. 700 million Christians in Africa. Wow. Right. And Africa is also the youngest continent. Hmm. Young people? Hmm. So you know, when Christianity comes young people, they will travel? Right. So they’re talking about this African diaspora. And so that book was just going to press I think, end of the year, so they asked me to write the endorsement. So I read the whole thing, very exciting, how Africa is rising as a missionary force, much like Koreans have sent missionaries around the world. Now Koreans, you know, Chuck Africans are going as missionaries all over the world, right. And in fact, China has become the number one place for African students. Really, no more England, no more America or Canada, they’re going to join a destination for international students, for African students is China. Okay. And China has invested heavily in Africa.
Steve Chang: I know, I knew that. And China right now is a very enigmatic place. They’re both at the same time, very global in their desire and ambition, but very protective of their, you know, own legacy and culture.
Sam George: But you know, Christianity is exploding by end of the year, you know, China may be the largest Christian country. Hmm, you know, explosive growth. I’ve been closely monitoring Chinese Christianity, and I have many friends in there. And yeah, so you know, instead of happening thing, can I even send more missionaries now?
Steve Chang: Right, right. I think a friend of mine, a Chinese pastor is saying how the Roman roads help the gospel to, you know, to travel. And he said that it’s the Chinese diaspora. That may be the thing that God uses. Because they’re, they’re everywhere.
Sam George: Yeah, Chinese have built a railroad rail network now. Yeah. Yeah. So I was in Berlin a couple of years ago, in Germany, I saw the first train arrived there. From Beijing to Berlin is not amazing. The train is running all the way. Imagine that expands so the roads are installed road, they build the high speed train. I mean, we still can’t pass a train our transportation bill in America, China, Buddha, you know, China has more high speed rail and the rest of the world put together now. Right? Just in the last 15 years, right, right. Yeah, the amount of investment that they are done in a high tech infrastructure and airports that they build. Unbelievable. Hmm. But what will happen is like the Roman roads, people will move that will be the largest impact of this. I’ve written about this phenomena. I traveled on the, you know, the, the new Chinese, you know, the roads and you know, went to several cities. And so we are closely monitoring that. So Roman roads were not about Pax Romana, not about Roman civilization, not the robot, Roman Empire. Gospel travel there. Right, right. God is just using the Chinese to build all this. So that I’m projecting close to 100 million Chinese will come to Central Asia and Middle East and Western Europe. Right. Right. million. Yeah. So the 100 million, 70 million will be Christians.
Steve Chang: Wow. So like, what Western Christianity could not do in Central Asia and Central Asia opened up, like the church kind of, you know, they failed. The Muslims came in and succeeded. But perhaps the Chinese will come in and succeed with the gospel.
Sam George: Koreans did, some Chinese did very little. But I think this because at that time, Chinese Christianity was very weak. Right, right. But now, the vibrancy and the missionary passion that they have, right evangelizing people like crazy.
Steve Chang: Right? And they know what it means to suffer. They know what it means to do church underground.
Sam George: They’re not using the American model, or the western model. That is the strength. So you Korea and India, we all followed the western model, evangelization, the two church planting, blah, blah, blah. They’re using a different chain of evangelistic model.
Steve Chang: Okay, we need to have another conversation about this, but it’s an exciting time. Dr. George, there’s a conference coming up in April. You can look at our website for the Asian American leadership conference. If you can be here in California for that we’d love to connect with you.
Sam George: When is it in April?
Steve Chang: Yeah, I think it’s April 25. Through the 27th. Monday through Wednesday, I think.
Sam George: Okay. Just send me some details if you have a plan for that. I know I am teaching in Singapore in April. But I should be back by then.
Steve Chang: Okay. All right. I’ll send you something. But Dr. George, thank you so much for your time. Okay.