Editor’s Note: This is Part 2 of a conversation between Pastor Thabiti Anyabwile of Anacostia Bible Church and Pastor Michael Lee, a member of the SOLA Council. You can find part 1 here.
In this video, we learn about what gives Pastor Thabiti hope in the recent conversations about race and how to be engaged as Christians, even if the debate is in a secular space. We hope this conversation will be encouraging and challenging to our audience.
You can watch the video here:
Below is an edited and condensed version of the conversation.
Michael Lee: You’ve been pastoring for almost 20 years. Are there any moments where you definitely felt that there was significant progress or you felt really hopeful? You’ve used a phrase, “the Black community has had to hold fast to hope.” Were there ever moments in your life where you really see the church is actually making headway. Or are there moments where you’re like, “Jesus, come back! This ain’t gonna happen. I give up. I’m gonna tap out MMA-style.”
Thabiti Anyabwile: Laughs. That’s how I feel most days. Just like, “Come, Lord Jesus. I’ve been tapping for a long time.”
In terms of moments where I feel hopeful or feel like progress has been made, honestly, I think we’re living in that in one of those moments right now. This moment feels unusual to me in the wide number of people who seem to get it and are taking to the streets, are praying, are buying and reading books, having conversations with people in their church and with their neighbors, and are endeavoring to actually put their feet on the ground and march and work for a more just society.
I don’t know that there’s ever been [a time], in the history of the country (the exception perhaps of parts of abolitionism and parts of the civil rights movement) where there has been this kind of recognition and engagement.
This right now is a time to be tremendously hopeful, with the fact that we’re having this conversation with SOLA and the Asian American Christian Collaborative. There are other efforts in multiple ethnic groups and denominational groups to work together toward a more just world — that feels new to me. When you see that, not just in the U.S. context, but you see people across the world under the banner of Black Lives mattering and calling for justice and ending racism, as far as I know, that’s never happened in the history of the world.
In the aftermath of George Floyd’s killing, we had protests across US cities, but also across Europe, Australia, and in Asian countries. It’s just like, “Okay, this is new.” It’s cause to be hopeful. It needs to be stewarded, particularly Christian participation, and it needs to be stewarded carefully. But it does feel like reason to hope.
I say that as a guy who, if you have been reaching out to me two-and-a-half to three years ago, I would have confessed to you that my main sin, my entangling sin, at that point, was a certain kind of hopelessness. So I’m encouraged right now. I still think there’s a lot to do and the reactionary voices that oppose justice have grown louder as more progress has been evident.
Nevertheless, I think those voices have grown louder because they recognize that we’re on the cusp of some change, and we are on the cusp of some progress that for whatever reason makes them feel threatened.
Michael Lee: There’s a lot of language about “What does it mean to be an ally? A non-Black ally?” We need to consider what it means to be an advocate. Do you have any guidelines or words of encouragement for the Asian American or non-Black church community to consider?
Thabiti Anyabwile: First of all, this is one of the things that feels fresh and feels new to me — to see a number of Asian American groups and individuals speaking up and engaging in things and to see more collaboration and conversation between African American groups and Asian American groups, about even our own dynamics. That’s really significant and really positive, and I’m really grateful for that. Allyship and solidarity begin with that kind of conversation and getting to know each other. That’s important.
The other thing I think of is Proverbs 31:8-9, speak up for the vulnerable, speak for those who are marginalized. So we need to not only talk to each other, but we then need to talk up in advocacy toward those who have some influence or some power, some authority for change and to hold them accountable. And so we want to translate our relationship into advocacy.
The third thing in the way of expressing solidarity and being allies is that it’s helpful for us all to learn the language of lament — to mourn together and weep together to cultivate Christian empathy in a world — in a church world — that today and historically have lacked it. To enter into each other’s suffering, to enter into each other’s pain, to enter into each other’s weeping.
Not all the things that go on need a policy solution or some other kind of redress. Sometimes the most effective work is to be Job’s friends before they started talking, just to sit for several days and just be in it together. That too is tremendously healing, particularly on the ground where we have real relationships with one another.
Michael Lee: As you preach and teach and live centered on the Gospel, how would you say that the Gospel uniquely compels us toward pursuing biblical justice? But also how does it also sustain us in the face of injustice, in those times of despair and hopelessness?
Thabiti Anyabwile: I think of Romans 3:21-26, which Leon Morris called the most important paragraph ever written, where God is just and the justifier of those who have faith in Christ Jesus. That is getting right at justification, getting right at the heart of the gospel, and getting right at the character of God.
Well, why? Paul’s solving a conundrum there because it seems like God’s unjust because he hasn’t been swift in his punishment and he has left some things unpunished. Paul is helping us to understand that no, his patience is meant to lead us to repentance. And guess what? He is just; he’s going to be a justifier of those who believe in Christ Jesus. But he’s also going to be a just judge in the end for those who disobey the gospel and reject Jesus.
So our hope is anchored not in some kind of scorecard about which policies we get passed, which practices get changed, or what have you. Our hope is anchored in this just God, His character, and his gospel, which satisfies justice — all of his just demands — either in terms of Christ’s own crucifixion in our place or in terms of God’s accurate, holy, and right judgment of those who will stand apart from Christ.
Justice will be served, and justice will be eternal. We are barreling toward that day and we need to keep our eyes on that. That’s how it gives us hope.
But now at the same time, if we understand the gospel and we are just people, it propels us to act justly. So Jesus tells the well-known parable right of the Good Samaritan. We know that story about the Samaritan, dealing with the man who was robbed and left for dead. We know how he cared for him and paid for his bills at the hotel.
But Jesus tells that parable in response to the question of justification. Someone came to him and asked him what it must be needed to be saved. Jesus answered the question, and
the man, the Bible says, “wanting to justify himself” asks, “Who is my neighbor?”
So Jesus, in telling that story, is telling us that justification is not merely an academic, theological doctrine. It is a theological doctrine, but you see [justification] in the way in which people behave justly — justification leads to just living.
The gospel, in a right standing with God, ought to propel us toward right standing with neighbor and right standing with others, which we normally call justice. And the gospel, of course, propels us to pray.
Now we go over to Luke 18 — the persistent widow. Jesus again tells a parable about a widow who’s been wronged; she’s got an enemy. She keeps going to this judge who fears neither God nor man — doesn’t care about anybody. She just keeps going to this judge so this judge says, “I’m going to lose my mind if this woman doesn’t leave me alone. I better give her justice.”
That parable starts out with Jesus’ disciples needing to be taught how to pray. And so he tells this parable, you have to pray this way. But it’s interesting, the punch line of the parable doesn’t come back to prayer. The punchline of the parable is, God shall give justice to his elect. And so I think that gives us hope, and that sustains us this certainty that God is going to be just in dealing with his chosen people He’s going to be just in the world. And we should like that we’ll just keep praying for justice.
We’ll do our best work for justice on our knees. And so we should be praying for justice and pleading persistently knowing that God is not grudging in giving it. It may not be on our timing, but he’s not grudging in giving it, and he’s going to give it in full and so those are the kinds of things I think should give us hope because our God’s throne is established in righteousness is established in justice. He’s given us entire books of the Bible that are meant to teach us how to live with equity and fairness and righteousness and justice, like the book of Proverbs. Proverbs 1:3 says that. And so, he’s equipping us and calling us to do this work because it does reveal his heart. And it does comport with the gospel itself.
Michael Lee: And so we do our best work of justice on our knees. That’s such a great reminder.
Thabiti Anyabwile: For the civil rights movement, we focus on the marches and the sit-ins, but many people don’t realize that it actually was a prayer movement. It was just significant amounts of prayer before there was a march and before there was a demonstration or a sit-in. This is actually a Christian movement in its character. Sadly, it had Christian opponents too, but it was a Christian movement, and it was bathed in prayer.
I read recently about Coretta Scott King, Dr. King’s widow, who was reflecting on the civil rights movement and on how important prayer was and how much it was stressed and how much they did [pray]. We need to regain that as a Christian people.
Michael Lee: Speaking of the civil rights movement, it can be questioned whether it was a gospel movement (I know you talked about that with the TGC), but it was definitely a Christian movement. It was spearheaded with prayer, worship, preaching, and the scriptures.
We don’t have that today. We have BLM, and we understand that there’s BLM the statement and BLM the organization. There’s a conflict for Christians to participate in the marches and X, Y and Z. How do you communicate and lead your church in navigating [these spaces’ with Christian gospel motivations but going into a secular movement for justice?
Thabiti Anyabwile: I’ll be frank with you. I think a lot of the consternation about Black Lives Matters the organization is just a strawman. It’s just a Boogeyman. When I think about Christians who care about this, none of them are involved in a BLM chapter; none of them are signed on to some organizational set of points or objectives.
A lot of the energy given to debating, “Do they want to destroy the nuclear family?” and all that is a massive distraction. And for participation in marches: They’re not the only game in town. Most of the Christians I know who have organized marches or participated, none of them have done that with Black Lives Matter.
A march that several sisters in our church and another church in the city organized, we didn’t do that would BLM. We cooperated with the AND Campaign, another Christian organization, trying to help disciple Christians to think not in bifurcated ways, but in holistic, biblical ways about our public witness. We did that with 20 other churches, and that wasn’t Black Lives Matter. That was a Christian saying, “Black lives matter.”
People who are feeling a lot of consternation about this, shouldn’t. The folks who make the most out of that organization are actually arguing in opposition to the movement that’s underfoot right now. It’s telling that they are arguing in opposition to the movement using that organization as a scarecrow while not themselves offering an alternative. That’s the telltale sign.
It’d be one thing if they would say, “Hey, we’re out here doing this thing. 24/7, come join us and leave that other thing alone.” No, they’re just actually wanting you to stop. They don’t want you to be better. They want you to stop.
If you’re motivated by the gospel, and you’re convicted by the Holy Spirit, to lean into this, woe to you if you stop. You should keep going as long as the Lord calls you to keep going.
So I would say to those Christians, as we said before, in terms of working in secular spaces, stay tethered to your church and stay tethered to your Bible. Make sure that you are evaluating things through the teaching of the Scripture. Then I would say, find the things that are being led and organized by Christians that you trust. There are lots of things out there.
And if you can’t find something, organize something. Pull together other like-minded folks from your congregation, other like-minded Christians from your fellowship network, and do something. God has given us agency — we’re free to do that, so do that. We don’t have to make common causes with secular organizations because their names are popular. We should get out there in our own regard and do the work.
Michael Lee: I was gonna ask for any advice or encouragement for young Christians who are new to the game. On top of staying tethered to the local church, looking to partner with Christian organizations, knowing that BLM isn’t the only game out there, and having the courage and resourcefulness to start your own, are there any other things you want to tell our audience to encourage them? Especially because your first two kids are right in our demographic with our college and post-college SOLA audience.
Thabiti Anyabwile: Well, they’re both smarter than a dad. So I’m mostly learning from them. But one other thing I would say is not so much a strategy. It goes to iden
tity.
You want to be really secure in who you are in Christ. That’s important for two reasons. One, there are worldly currents that will take you on out to the sea of worldliness if you’re not anchored. Secondly, there are Christian voices that will use all kinds of disparaging comments and pejorative labels to try and bully you into stopping. There are folks who take terms like “woke” and “CRT [Critical Race Theory]” and blame you for being a Marxist.
Now, what helps you immensely when you’ve got worldly undertow on one side and professing Christians’ scoffing and mocking and ridicule on the other side, is to know that you’re rooted in Christ and know who you are and whose you are in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Above all things, put on Christ and be rooted in and grounded in him. Be built up in Him and you’ll be building your life on the rock. When the winds and the waves come, you’ll stand and that’s what we want to see happen.
I would encourage folks to take their youth and not get enamored with the glittery things that are happening in the world, but be enamored with Jesus and build your life into him, be rooted in him, then you’ll be able to withstand all the stuff that’s happening around you.
Michael Lee: Can I ask one last question? This has been such an awesome talk I’ve absolutely enjoyed it. We can preach, we can talk about racial reconciliation, and we can look towards revelation and envision that multiethnic community of God, gathered together and bowed down before Christ. You’re now pastoring a predominantly African American church, I pastor a predominantly Asian American church. Are we keeping Sunday morning as the most segregated hour in America? Do we have tension that we need to work out? What are some of your thoughts on that?
Thabiti Anyabwile: No, because White people can come join our church. We have White members, we have Asian members, and we have a couple of Hispanic members. We have folks from the Caribbean and Africa. I’m reacting that way because I think when that question most often gets asked, it presumes people traveling in one direction. It presumes all of us ethnic folk traveling in the direction of predominantly White congregations or spaces. Almost never do people think that our White brothers and sisters should be traveling the other course into predominantly African or predominantly Asian spaces.
I think that needs to be challenged. We’re preaching the same gospel. We’re worshipping the same Jesus. We’re not trying to have churches that are ethnic and cultural enclaves, which means we want churches that are welcoming to people who reflect the diversity of the kingdom of God. If we’re all aiming for that, then at least conceptually, we all ought to be comfortable joining the church that’s closest to our house, not driving past four Korean churches to get to an African American church or White church, not driving past three gospel-preaching Black churches, and so on.
When we do that, that’s usually indicative that something else besides Jesus is being valued and sought after. Now, it may not be sinful to do that. There may in fact be times and seasons we’re doing that for our own spiritual health.
Right now we’re seeing lots of people leave predominantly White churches to go to ethnic churches where they feel safer, where they feel cared for and shepherded spiritually, where they feel taught and shaped as disciples to bear faithful witness in the culture because in the churches that they’re leaving, it’s been anti-that. Okay, I get that. I don’t think that’s wrong. I wish it wasn’t the case or it didn’t have to be the case. But it does seem to be the case.
I don’t think it’s wrong to seek a place where the community of God’s people is restored and refreshed and safe. We may have ethnic churches until Jesus comes back. That too is happening under his sovereign control of the church. And we can long for greater unity, and we should. Ephesians 4:3: We should do everything to maintain the unity of the Spirit and a bond of peace. So we should work for it.
But honestly, you can’t tie a rope with one hand. If we want a relationship that is knotted tight, then we’ve got to have people on both sides of the rope pulling the knot tight. You can’t make a knot with one hand. We’re just gonna need many more of our White brothers and sisters, to pick up the other side of the rope, help us tie the knot tight, and do the things they need to do as a matter of their own discipleship, to be people who genuinely and selflessly give themselves to that.
Michael Lee: Thank you so much. That’s so good. I hope we can do a SOLA and Front Porch collaboration, make some knots of our own.
Thabiti Anyabwile: All right, that would be a joy man. We should get that in.
Michael Lee: Thank you so much for watching. Please like, comment, and share. That really helps us promote our material and makes all the difference. Thanks for watching and God Bless.