How do pastors address a world that tries to minimize pain or avoid it altogether? Pastor and professor Dr. Matthew Kim addresses the problem of pain and its importance in pulpit ministry in his new book Preaching to People in Pain.
In this interview with SOLA Network social media manager Aaron Lee, Dr. Kim talks about his own painful experiences and encourages pastors to preach on the topic—even if it is difficult. He also exhorts church members to encourage their pastors, many of whom may be hurting, as well as to encourage one another to be vulnerable by being a safe community where people can share.
Read Aaron’s review of the book.
Editor’s Note: Below is a transcript of the interview. It has been lightly edited for clarity. Please note that there may be typos and other errors in the transcript. You can listen to the audio here.
Aaron Lee: Hi everyone. This is Aaron for the SOLA Network. Should a pastor speak to our personal pains directly from the pulpit? This is the subject of Preaching to People in Pain by Dr. Matthew Kim. It explains how suffering can shape our sermons and connect with our congregations. It is published by Baker Academic 2021. And I have Dr. Kim with us today. Dr. Kim, would you please introduce yourself?
Matthew Kim: Hi, and hi to the SOLA Network. It’s great to be with you. I’m a second-generation Korean American. And for the last nine plus years I’ve been teaching at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary north of Boston. And my primary areas are preaching and pastoral ministry.
Aaron Lee: Dr. Kim, it’s so good to connect with you. Thanks for taking the time to do this. I enjoyed your book. Can you please just tell us a little bit about it? For those who haven’t read it, can you tell us what your main point is? And really why a book on preaching and pain?
Matthew Kim: Yeah, well, I think that there are numerous reasons why I thought the book was necessary. It really started when I was a pastor in Colorado where I was noticing that my church members wanted to grow in Christ. And there were many things that I think impeded their spiritual growth at times, and that seemed to be the issue of pain and suffering.
So as much as we think in terms of ministry, in these big terms of spiritual growth and “how do I become a more faithful disciple”—I noticed that at the same time, people were dealing with their own struggles. How would someone reconcile the struggles in their physical life or just relational life with their own spiritual development?
I prayed and thought about this for a number of years. Eventually, in 2019, the Lord led me to write this book. And it just happened that in God’s providence, COVID happened. And so in many ways, there was just this blending of what does it mean to think about the Christian life? And what are some of the impediments that prevent Christians from growing?
That led me to think more intentionally about how the Bible speaks to pain. How does the Bible speak and address the issues that not just first century or ancient cultures were dealing with? How does the Bible speak to us today, in terms of our own pain? And what are some ways that we can think about pain collectively, not just from the pulpit, but as a church? And so how do we in community wrestle with these things?
Aaron Lee: And Dr. Kim, you talked about this, about COVID. But I also want to hit on some other things, such as how this book particularly is especially relevant to Asian Americans, not only during COVID times, but especially as we’ve seen AAPI hate and also post election political divides?
Matthew Kim: You’re really addressing something important in terms of our own Asian American, Asian North American solidarity. We are noticing our own sense of disruption in our lives. The things that 30-40 years ago we typically would just push it under the rug and say, Oh, that’s just another experience of marginalization or prejudice, we’re now able to speak to these things. The collective mass of critical mass of us have continued to notice and experience the tremendous pain, especially in light of the Atlanta shootings, and coupling that with African American pain and suffering. We’re able to now speak to those issues in a more concrete and purposeful manner.
As we think about it, I would say, I’ll look at it two ways. Either we have all as Asian Americans experienced pain as Asian Americans and trauma in living this life in the United States. Or we can suppress those things and deny that they don’t exist and try to assimilate and say no, I’m American. I don’t have to deal with that.
But as visible minorities, we are constantly wrestling with these things. So I do hope that the book will be able to address some of those issues. Politically speaking, we’re all in this tension of disruption, disagreement, disunity. And so politically speaking, I think that relationally in terms of our relationships, we can do a better job of growing into Christ’s likeness.
Aaron Lee: Yeah, and I’m speaking on these broad things—political divides, COVID. But your book actually gets really personal. You’re advocating sharing personal pains from the pulpit, not just in these broad strokes, but really getting into the pastor’s life. I want people to read this book; I think you have great points. And it’s really convincing.
Do you have general advice for pastors who are agreeing with this and want to start sharing pain from the pulpit? I think there’s some pastors that don’t do this. Or it might just be new for them. What advice would you have to give?
Matthew Kim: Especially for Asian Americans, we’ve been told to not not shame the family. To not bring up our own personal issues, and in some way, dishonor our family and bring shame upon our family.
One of the things I’ve been trying to wrestle with in my own life is to be honest with who I am: What are some of my own struggles? Again, I want to reinforce that we’re not sharing every issue, every struggle, every pain from the pulpit in a haphazard, random, or impulsive way. Rather, we’re being prayerful about the process. If there are issues of pain in the scripture text that relate to some of the things that I might be going through or my church members, then I might be able to bring those things up with prayer, with discretion, with wisdom.
I would even encourage and strongly suggest having church leaders bring this up with their leaders and say, is this appropriate for me to bring this up. So getting some permission beforehand would be wise and worthwhile. And yet, recognizing that, as Asian Americans, there are some taboo areas. We wouldn’t want to bring up current sins or things that would discredit us in any way.
And yet, at the same time, we need to be honest with who we are. And if we’re having doubts, if we’re having frustration or anger, whether it’s toward God or this world, I think it’s okay, within reason, to be able to share those things and to be forthright and open about these things with our church members.
Aaron Lee: What I really appreciate about your book was that you detailed six topics that are painful points for preachers. They hit on their painful relationships, painful finances, painful health issues, painful loss, painful relationships, and then painful sins. I wanted to go through each of these quickly, and ask you a quick question on all of these topics.
You hit on this earlier with the honor-shame culture. So in regards to painful relationships, what is that relationship between painful decisions that people have made in the past and then this honor-shame culture that is particularly prevalent in Asian American communities?
Matthew Kim: Right, and one of the things that I think is very sensitive, and we want to be very culturally sensitive, is that Asian Americans already struggle with shame and guilt. And we want to be sensitive to the fact that we don’t want to open wounds unnecessarily. And yet, there is this strong motif in Scripture that tells us that we are to be reconciled with God, to be reconciled with our neighbor in our community.
Sometimes we get into Satan’s way which would be to suppress those things, whereas the Bible is strongly encouraging us to be more open and community to be able to be reconciled with each other and reconciled with God. I’m thinking of passages like 2 Corinthians 5:17-18, and following, talking about how we are to be ministers of reconciliation, and how does that happen?
It happens through dialogue. It happens through prayer, repentance, community building. So the more we suppress those things or pretend like they don’t exist, they’re only going to hurt the relationship.
You didn’t really bring this up in your question, Aaron, but it happens a lot between first and second generation Asian Americans and Asian immigrants—that necessity to suppress how we’re really feeling. And that hasn’t helped us in many ways. It’s actually hurt the relationship.
So as you think about relational pains, I would go to the fact that, yes, it might be shameful in the moment to be able to bring up some of our issues and struggles. And yet, that’s the hard work of reconciliation. That’s the hard work that we need to reconcile in terms of believers in becoming true disciples who look more like Jesus. And to be able to do that we need to be able to overcome those sins and relational struggles.
Aaron Lee: And I appreciate you saying that. It’s even something that I don’t even necessarily feel, oh, should I talk about this?
There’s a section in your book where you mentioned affluenza. Can you explain what this word is? And how, how can we preach to this problem?
Matthew Kim: Well, we’re all familiar with the term influenza. I didn’t coin the term affluenza obviously. But affluenza is basically the disease of wanting more material possessions and comfort in this life and never being satisfied with what we have. And yet there’s also this dimension of, if I’m materialistic, I can make that almost like a spiritual bug in someone else’s life. They’re always competing with me, and I’m always competing with them in terms of how much I have or don’t have.
As Christians, affluenza is a disease that we have to acknowledge. It is something that I think every single person on the planet struggles with in terms of discontentment in this life with what we have been given by God. And so that’s what I mean in terms of affluenza. And how can we help Christians see that as a particular source of brokenness in their lives?
Aaron Lee: How should pastors preach to this topic? Maybe a church is really well off and you have congregants that are suffering from this, or maybe the church is not well off. And you have the opposite side of the spectrum? How can pastors speak to both sides?
Matthew Kim: Well, as a pastor who has ministered to more wealthy Asian Americans, it was a struggle in terms of bringing up how do we become more generous? How do we sow generously among our people? How do we live out the Good Samaritan message that we are to be available and care for the least of these? It was a struggle.
And as you think about both sides of the issue, if you had a congregation that didn’t have as much, and you’re trying to get people who are more affluent and get them to live together, reconcile, and work together? It is a tremendous challenge.
So I don’t have any real antidote here in terms of how you do that. Class issues are some of the most difficult ones beyond just racial ethnic ones. Sometimes class is even more divisive and difficult to bridge. We do want to advocate for an Acts 2 congregation that whether we are materially rich or mature materially less well off, we can still see the needs of others. Giving and relationship building is not just about purely monetary things. It’s not just about me giving financially to another person—it could be my time, it could be a listening ear, it could be empathy, sympathy, and just hearing their story.
Aaron Lee: Yeah. Here’s something that we can all relate to: health issues. You mentioned in your book, it’s good to preach regularly on a theology and celebration of weakness. Can you explain this a little bit more to our pastors, as I’m sure everybody has been dealing with health issues?
Matthew Kim: Sure. As I was doing my research, I found that pastors are some of the most unhealthy people on the planet. That’s not just physically speaking, but emotionally and spiritually.
A lot of pastors are going through some really tough times and there’s no one to turn to. I think one of the most difficult parts of ministry is loneliness and not having deep friendships with others. These are areas where we are constantly seeking to grow, and I hope that the book will encourage pastors to really develop that part of their lives to be able to share different areas of pain and suffering.
If I can just briefly give an anecdote of my own life. Up until the point I was about 35, life was really good. I grew up in a middle class, Asian American family. My parents were always sacrificial, giving their best for me and my brothers. And yet something happened after I moved to Massachusetts and started teaching at the seminary where, first of all, I suffered a severe concussion. I detail that in the book, but I’m still suffering from that concussion almost nine years later. I’m still dizzy every single day.
Even as I’m talking to you, I feel like my brain is moving all throughout my cranium, and I can’t control it. Every waking moment I’m suffering with this dizziness, and I can’t get the words out of my mouth. Sometimes I just have to sit here and just close my eyes because I’m dizzy and I can’t get my thoughts together. That’s a moment of weakness. That’s an issue that, for whatever reason, in God’s sovereignty, he has not provided physical healing for me.
And yet, I hold on to the promises that are available to me in 1 Corinthians, that there is rejoicing in suffering, there is rejoicing in weakness, because then Jesus is made strong in our lives. So there’s no shame in that.
I think as pastors, we can talk to our people, and when we do identify with our own suffering and share those things, those church members, I was very surprised over the years how, as I shared more about my own struggles, they would share their struggles with me, and we build community that way.
Aaron Lee: Dr. Kim, I just want to say thank you for being so open and honest, not only here in the podcast, but also in your book. You really went into detail, and it’s difficult to read just because of what you’ve detailed but it was encouraging reading your testimony.
I would like to ask if you would be open to sharing a certain story that you detailed in your book about your brother. This was in the section of painful loss. Would you please share with our listeners your testimony?
Matthew Kim: Yes, thank you, Aaron. It’s something that’s just a real source of agony for my family. It’s been almost six years now. My younger brother, Tim, who was living in the Philippines, was brutally murdered. And after just a short period of time, the case was closed right away by local government officials because of corruption. We were not able to actually figure out who committed the crime and there was no justice given in the loss of my brother.
He was working as a really successful businessman. And I call him the Good Samaritan in terms of how much he impacted others’ lives. So when my youngest brother and I actually went to the Philippines to collect his body, we were told that it was an accident, that his death was an accident, and everything was covered up.
But as we got to hear the story from my brother’s co-workers, person after person came up and told us how much Tim had done for them and in their lives of the sacrificial care and nurture that he provided, even as a business manager of a company.
I chronicled the narrative as it relates to other people’s loss. Other people have lost siblings or family members tragically or due to illness in various ways. So I’m hoping that in sharing that story, people might be able to read it and say, I not only do I identify with that pain, but Christ is the one we turn to in times of suffering, and that we can find peace and understanding only in Christ.
Aaron Lee: It’s a moving testimony. Dr. Kim, thank you again for sharing that. And I echo you 100% only Jesus is our solution. He’s the answer. He’s our only hope for all of these things.
It comes back to the local church where we’re able to find encouragement and walk together with each other, and the pastor is in a unique position to be able to speak to all these things to the congregation. I think that’s really the gist of your book where you’re coming from is that pastor you can speak to these things.
In the church, there are painful relationships. And my church is a trilingual church; we have English, Cantonese and Mandarin congregations. I know of different churches that have a Korean- ministry and an English-speaking ministry. Sometimes there are painful relationships between the congregations. How can a pastor speak to these things, especially when it’s like a sensitive topic like that in the church?
Matthew Kim: I really wish I had the solution for multi-generational Asian ministry. There’s so many factors, it’s so complex, in terms of the different struggles that can happen. One of the things that’s probably, as most of our listeners know, is most challenging is not just the language barrier, but the cultural barrier. As much as the language barrier is prominent, the cultural barrier sometimes is much stronger.
The ability to listen and ask for forgiveness, to repent and confess our sin to one another, to be able to acknowledge that, yes, I’ve made mistakes, and I’ve sinned against another. These kinds of expressions, if they’re heartfelt, can go a long way in bringing about the reconciliation restoration that we need across the different generations. So that’s a huge topic. I’m sure others have done a lot of good work in this area, which I would love to read more about. But in terms of our own Asian American or Asian immigrant story, as we think about all the layers and complexities languages is one and yet, we also have that deep divide with culture. And so yeah, I don’t know how to answer that succinctly, but there’s much work to be done continuously.
Aaron Lee: No, you made a great point that it’s not just language—it’s cultural problems.
Another question I have for you, and this will be the last one in these topical questions. Painful sins—what types of sins can be preached from the pulpit? What should you refrain from preaching on? Maybe I can throw you a little bit of a curveball here. There are a lot of churches that have dealt with sexual sin, abusive pastors, or things of that nature. So what is appropriate to be preached on from the pulpit? And then how do you distinguish between Okay, maybe we need to make an announcement about this versus Okay, this, this is something we need to have a series and preach on it. I think there’s some nuance there that you can address.
Matthew Kim: The whole book is predicated on a pastor being prayerful. We don’t just preach reactionary sermons. We are praying through: What is my church needing to hear in this season?
And for me, when I was a pastor, I tried to do the best I could in terms of really relying on the Spirit, but also asking my church members and church leaders, what are people going through right now? What are some of the areas that they’re struggling with? And the worst thing we can do is hear about a particular sin in our church and then preach on it the following Sunday. That’s not the encouragement that I’m leading towards.
What I am suggesting in that chapter on sins is to say, is there any sin that Christ has not redeemed? Is there any sin for which Christ did not die or pay the penalty to be able to free people from the baggage that so many of us carry and not being able to forgive ourselves? And for that scripture passage, to bring healing to a person, not condemnation?
It’s clear in Romans 8 and following that there’s no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. I think—and this is where my book may or may not get good press—people are afraid about preaching on sin. Mm hmm. It’s in other parts of the book. I call it a new evangelistic turnoff to preach on pain and suffering and sin. And yet, there’s nothing that people need more than to hear about sin. There’s nothing that people need to hear more about them than repenting for sin and to come closer to Christ and, and that we can run the Jesus’s loving arms in spite of the sinful proclivities that we all have.
So to answer your question, is there anything that cannot be preached about in terms of sin? No, I think that anything is worthwhile preaching, but we want to be careful, we want to be nuanced. We want to know who’s in the room. For example, I don’t think particular sermon should be preached on sin when children are present. I think that’s pretty obvious. But you know, sometimes we make those mistakes that we were very vocal and vulnerable, when we should be more careful in our language. So is there any sense that we can’t, we can’t preach on? No, but yeah, we need to be yet we need to be wise, in which ones we’re gonna name. And Paul goes into all kinds of sins in his letters. And so we do need to be able to have the courage to not apologize for God.
Aaron Lee: Yes. And, yes, there’s a lot of wisdom that you share in your book. But definitely you do bring it down to each individual church and you need to know your own people. In the book, you actually recommend writing a list—these are the sin struggles that our congregation is dealing with—and what can we address here. I think that’s a very practical application that pastors of a church can look at together. And I think your book does a great job of distilling that process
Dr. Kim, I want to respect your time, and I appreciate you for doing this. We’re on different time zones here. How can regular church members like me non pastors—how can just regular church members encourage their pastors to preach on pain? And then how can we contribute to being a people that speak openly and plainly about our pain?
What I’m really asking is, how can I as a church member, just contribute to helping encouraging my pastor but also bringing the dialogue into small groups? Or maybe I lead a youth group at church? How can I as a volunteer continue the conversation on these topics?
Matthew Kim: Yeah, thank you. One of the things—I think you brought this up naturally—is to be able to bridge the sermon with our own small group discipleship. One thing you could do is, as you talk about pain, as the preacher preaches on pain, that the church members would be able to talk about their own pain and pray together in their own small groups. To have that close knit community that can actually do these things together.
I would say that’s probably the best way that we can continue to grow and discipleship is to encourage the pastor but also to know that we want to cultivate a Christian community that can truly have people be vulnerable without making people feel ashamed of who they are or what they’re going through. To be able to say, this is who I am right now. I know that this is not what Christ wants me to be, but as a community, how can we rally around each other and love each other, and pray for each other so that we can grow and overcome these pain, issues of pain, suffering, or sin or whatever it is that we’re struggling with at the moment. To be able to be there for each other in a close knit community.
So my number one thing is to pray as a community. Pray for the spirit to be able to release us so that we might be agents that hear the needs of others and meet those needs as best we can.
Aaron Lee: Absolutely. Dr. Kim, thank you so much for your time. And I appreciate your partnership with SOLA, thank you for sharing your work with us and also your life with us too. Thank you.
Before we sign off, do you have any final encouragement for pastors, especially in Asian American context in regards to preaching through pain?
Matthew Kim: Yeah, well, thank you again, for having me on the podcast today. And it’s always good to be with SOLA Network and the pastors, so thank you pastors for what you’re doing.
I would say that the number one thing I would want to leave with is that a lot of pastors are really hurting right now, and they don’t have anyone to turn to in their own pain and in their own suffering. If I can be so bold, I would like to be available for you to put myself in a place where I would be able to hear and share your burdens. As someone who is not serving in full-time pastoral ministry, but in a teaching context, I want to be a pastor to pastors.
So if there’s anyone listening to this podcast, who would say, Hey, I would like to meet up with Matt and talk about some of these issues that I’m going through as a pastor, and I have no one to turn to. I would like to make myself available to you to hear your story, and to pray with you. And if there’s anything I can do to help you in your ministry, I like to be able to serve God in that way. So it would be my honor to do that. And so, Aaron, if you want to share some information so that people can contact me, I’d be welcome. I would welcome that. And I would really want to help you and serve you in that way.
Aaron Lee: Yeah, absolutely. We’ll put everything in the show notes. And you can always reach out to my email, podcast@sola.network. Dr. Kim, I’m so blessed to speak to you. Thank you so much.
Matthew Kim: Thanks for having me.