A flush of heat floods your face and neck. You want to hide, escape, or melt down into the floor—you feel ashamed. Shame is worse than embarrassment. It affects your identity, making you want to hide parts or even all of yourself. But the way to combat shame isn’t to “fix” yourself or cover your misdeeds—it is to be truly known and loved.
That is the message of Esther Liu’s book Shame: Being Known and Loved. Her 31-day devotional explains how Jesus gently asks us to bring our shame into the light. He too suffered shame and shows us how we can be covered in his grace and love.
SOLA social media editor Aaron Lee interviewed Esther Liu, the author of Shame. In their conversation, they discuss her life story and how she came about writing the book. They also discuss:
- The effects of honor-shame culture
- The need to succeed to avoid shame
- How she wrote to her “younger self”
- Combating shame while writing the book
Available on YouTube and Podcasts. We hope you will be encouraged by their conversation. Read SOLA’s review of Shame here. Buy Shame through CCEF, Amazon, or Barnes & Noble.
Editor’s Note: Below is a lightly edited automated transcript of their conversation. There may be typos or grammatical errors.
Aaron Lee: Hi everyone. This is Aaron. I am here for SOLA Network. And today we are speaking with Esther Liu. Esther wrote this incredible book, Shame: Being Known and Loved. I reviewed it for SOLA, and you can read the review on our website. Esther, thank you for joining us today. Would you please introduce yourself? And maybe tell us about how this book got started?
Esther Liu: Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I maybe will start off by saying that I am like a fan girl of SOLA. So I’m trying to keep my composure right now the best that I can. But my name is Esther, as Aaron said. I am a faculty member and counselor at CCEF, which stands for the Christian Counseling and Educational Foundation in Glenside, Pennsylvania.
My brief introduction… My parents are immigrants from Taiwan. I was born in upstate New York, and then moved to central New Jersey in middle school. And I was there all the way through undergrad and then moved to the suburbs of Philadelphia when I started seminary at Westminster. And this was totally not the life plan, but ended up staying in the suburbs of Philly way after seminary. So I started working at CCEF and have been here ever since.
In terms of my faith journey, I guess I didn’t grow up in a Christian family. I became a Christian in college through friends who brought me to a campus fellowship and church. And yeah, my life was really transformed through those years. Those years were really formative for me, including my struggle with shame. That has been a part of my life since I was young. And yeah, those experiences show up in the devotional. So that’s kind of who I am.
To your question of like, how the book began, or how it got started… To this day, I am still caught off guard, like the whole thing was very surreal and unexpected. I do not, I did not, and I still, I guess maybe I should now, but I didn’t at the time, consider myself a writer. I’ve never written blogs. I mean, I wrote papers for school. But I think the extent of my writing mostly was just writing in my personal journal, like Dear Diary type stuff.
And so the fact that this opportunity came around for me is still a story that makes me laugh, because it just seems very absurd. But essentially, I had scribblings of notes for a conference that I was preparing for in Atlanta back in 2020. And it was going to be on shame. But then, because of COVID, the conference actually got canceled at the very last minute. And so I just had all this preparation work that I didn’t know what to do with in light of the conference being canceled. So I just typed it all up in just a random Word document so that it wouldn’t go to waste. And it would just live as a random Word document for I guess, six months, nine months, and it was never really going to see the light of day.
But I guess after six to nine months, I was asked for some writing samples, because I work at CCEF. And so yeah, the dean of faculty had asked me for some writing samples. And I just submitted this random Word document because I didn’t have anything else to submit. He ended up reading it. And he responded, saying, Esther, like, I think you should consider getting this material published. Would you consider that? Would you be interested in that? And my response was, No, it’s okay. I’m not really interested. I’m not really a writer. That’s never been on my to do list — to write a book. So I kind of turned him down, in a sense.
And then he kind of continued pushing gently, and then eventually was like, Would you give me permission to reach out to publishers on your behalf? If you wouldn’t do it yourself? Well, so I did end up giving him permission, ended up with P&R. And so somehow that became a book contract, which then miraculously, eventually turned into an actual devotional. So I don’t really know how it happened. I must have blocked out parts of the process because it was hard. But it is a book now.
Aaron Lee: That’s awesome. I don’t think I don’t remember hearing that story before. That’s amazing. So what’s super interesting to me is that you said that you’re not really a writer. But I mean, your book is really good. And it’s funny because you said that the only writing you really do is in your journal, but the book is a 31-day devotional. And you know, the chapters are really short. It’s meant to be done over this period of time. So I don’t know, to me your journal writing seems like the perfect fit. I think God was preparing you all along.
Esther Liu: I never thought of it that way. That’s actually a really sweet thought.
Aaron Lee: You went to seminary, you said, right? So how did you start seeing shame this way in the Bible? Did you understand shame like this before seminary, did it happen during seminary where you started reading it this way? When did that happen, exactly?
Esther Liu: Yeah, I would say… Probably one of the most prominent influences on my understanding of how scripture talks about shame is through Dr. Ed Welch, who is also a faculty member and counselor at CCEF, and wrote the book Shame Interrupted. I guess that came out… I don’t even know how long ago. But that book and just sitting under his teaching, as a counseling student during my seminary years, really opened my eyes to see how shame and that struggle, that issue, is really everywhere in Scripture.
And so it’s interesting because I think before that, I maybe had a more proof-texty view of shame. So it’s like, if I type shame in Biblegateway.com, and like, see what verses came up? Yeah. And so I feel like, those were the verses to me that were like, Oh, here’s where the Bible talks about shame. And so you think of like, Hebrews 12:2, where it talks about, you know, Jesus Christ, the founder and perfecter of our faith, despising the shame, etc. And so that word shows up.
But I think it was really Dr. Welch and even just my own seminary studies, realizing that it really is everywhere. And even if that word doesn’t explicitly show up, you see it in various narratives, where it’s not going to say shame explicitly, but you know, that the struggles that they’re experiencing is very much shame. Leah, in the Old Testament, who tried to earn her love, or earn Jacob’s love by… through childbearing. Or you think of all the people who are outcasts and rejects in society, who Jesus moved towards and welcomed and fellowship with and people who felt like sinners beyond the hope of grace, that Jesus paved the way forward for.
So when you think of those things, I think it’s been really sweet to deepen in my understanding that shame really is everywhere in Scripture, from Genesis to Revelation — which I think speaks to the God who cares about shame from Genesis to Revelation, which I think gives hope to people who struggle with it. He has something so beautiful to say about this human experience that can be so life impacting for so many people.
Aaron Lee: Yeah. The example of Leah really stood out to me when I read it in your book, I don’t know what it was. But I think the way that you laid it out was perfect. I think part of it has to do with like, for me, like I’ve said, I’m not a woman, right? So, you know, whatever men/women differences there are… like I can’t see it that way. But you helped bring that to light. And obviously, the different cultural differences that are just inherent in that story… you brought it to life, too. And so I really enjoyed the fact that you did span the entire biblical story, to show how shame is throughout the Bible. With your personal insight, though, how does being an Asian American Christian, or even your own personal story, impact how you relate to shame? How do you see your personal story intertwining with what you wrote about in the book?
Esther Liu: Yeah. So you had sent the questions in advance, and I read this question before, and I was like, Oh, this is a really good question. And I think, as I was thinking about it, and processing it, I think I realized how much I still have yet to understand how my Asian American Christian identity played a role or how it shaped and impacted the writing, and what ended up in the book. But I think what was clear, what I am aware of, is that it’s probably on every single page of the devotional, in some sense, without me consciously saying like, Okay, this is where my Asian American this comes in.
But given that, you know, Asian culture is like, honor, shame. And my parents were raised in that culture. And so the way they parented me, was shaped by that and so my upbringing, my formative years, just culturally, that has to just be in some sense, like the air that I breathe in ways that I might not even be fully conscious of and fully understand to this day. But yeah, I was thinking… I’m trying to think of an example of like, the degree of my awareness of how my Asian American identity played a role, and kind of how my particular struggle with shame… how that came to be. But I don’t know, I don’t know if people can relate or if you can relate.
But I grew up kind of there being a lot of family parties where all these families would come together, all the adults, all the kids, so there’d be an adult table, and there’d be a kid table. And you’d just hang out, and it’d be all night, and just such a ruckus, and good food and stuff like that. But I think one of the things that I remember about those family parties, aside from just having a blast with the other kids, was that dynamic, where the parents are all together, and they’re all chatting and catching up on things.
And sometimes as a kid, you would overhear some of those conversations and what they’re talking about. And a lot of times, inevitably, you know, they would talk about the kids. Like, my child, you know, is doing well in school, and oh, my child got first chair, and you know, the symphony orchestra or like, oh, yeah, my daughter just got into an Ivy League and are like, oh, yeah, my son just, you know, just got this job. And so, it kind of like with the appropriate modesty, I think that’s appropriate to Asian culture, there is kind of that like, or even like, Oh, I heard your son, you know, just landed this amazing job as a doctor or something like that, those conversations will play out. And then I think as a child, like being particularly sensitive to, I still remember, like that experience of how that subtly got internalized in me, of just… there’s a way to measure up to be worthy to be bragged about at this adult table. In this adult conversation.
There’s like a way, there’s like a formula, there are standards that I can meet to be someone that would be spoken well of at this adult table, which I think then just becomes a metaphor for the entirety of life. It’s beyond just, you know, the family party adult table. But I think that is kind of a specific example of where I started to learn and kind of internalize this reality of like, oh, there are certain things that I can succeed in, in order to make my parents proud of me. There are things that I do to earn that smile and that favor. And for, I guess, for me, a lot of that was academic achievement, or a respectable career, so on and so forth, accomplishments, etc.
And so that ended up being a huge part of my own shame journey that ends up coming out in the devotional, I think, just this notion of climbing ladders that I talked about. And like if you climb higher on this ladder of achievement, of accomplishment of building your resume of social skills of attractiveness, like if you just climb this ladder, and if you climb high enough, you’ll be good enough and you’ll be worthy. And you’ll measure up.
And if you don’t climb that ladder successfully, you end up being the kid that none of the adults really want to talk about. Because it’s like, like, Yeah, we don’t, we don’t need to talk about this black sheep of the family. And as someone who had an older brother, who was very intelligent, and competent and capable, I was definitely the one who was struggling to keep up and like, oh, like, I want to measure up and I want to be better. And I think that ended up being a huge part of just my own journey, and how that became a paradigm for my entire life of feeling like I need to toil and strive to be enough and to measure up to make people love me or approve of me. So I don’t know, just like one, maybe somewhat silly example of how Asian Americanness and shame kind of interface.
Aaron Lee: That is not silly at all. I can relate to that. 100%. And I’m gonna go and think about that after we’re done. Thank you for sharing that, Esther. And I think a lot of people will be able to benefit from hearing you say that in your own words, too. Despite your book being about shame, the subtitle is: “Being Known and Loved.” And yeah, I found your book to be incredibly hopeful.
And so I wanted to ask you, is this a message that you had or subconsciously thought we needed to hear today? After hearing the background of how the book came about, it sounds like you were just preparing a talk, right? Like from when you were studying. Like, how do you think that this message can be maybe beneficial for either Asian American Christians or just Christians in general at all today?
Esther Liu: Yeah, honestly, when I was writing it, I didn’t know if it’d be helpful. And that was part of the struggle of writing. It’s like, is this gonna be helpful at all? And I think what helped me endure those dark nights of the soul and writing of like, I don’t think this is gonna be of any use is, I think I would often remind myself, it’s like Esther, you don’t know like how helpful it will be to readers, like you can’t really control that you don’t know who’s going to end up having their hands on it, who’s going to end up reading it.
And so when I started thinking about readers as a whole, I would get very overwhelmed and be like, you know, I have nothing to say that would be helpful or whatnot, or there are so many other books that would be more helpful. But I think what kept me going was thinking about, like, what is a book that, like younger Esther could have used when she was struggling with shame? And what does she need to hear? And what would give her hope and courage to continue persevering, even when shame for me, like, at times, felt very paralyzing and crippling. And so I kind of wrote the book, kind of thinking about that a lot. Just like, I don’t know how helpful it will be to readers. But I hope that it’d be helpful to a younger version of myself and kind of wrote in that sense.
But I think what has been so sweet, since the book has come out, you know, the writing process is very isolating, in a sense, like, for a long time, no one really reads it except you, yourself and you. And like the editors eventually get involved, like, I was blessed to have friends who are willing to give it a read during the editing phases to give me feedback. But in some sense, like it is kind of isolating, you don’t really have a ton of feedback from readers.
But I think what’s been really sweet, as the book has come out, is the messages that I’ve received from people who have been reading it. And I think from their response, that’s when it hit me of, well, this devotional can actually be helpful to people. I don’t think I knew that or thought that or believed that until I actually received messages from people of how it was shaping and transforming their lives. And then part of that is, you know, obviously scripture being beautiful, and God being beautiful and Christ having beautiful words, to say to shameful strugglers.
But I think it was also interesting, that part of the hope journey was not just the pieces of the book that were explicitly trying to be hopeful and direct people to Jesus, but part of the hopefulness that people experienced was feeling they felt less alone, as they were reading through it. Yeah, I think maybe because like, so much of my personal experience was in there. And I was pretty transparent with that. I think just the fact that people feel less alone and isolated, and their struggle with shame. And that being such a meaningful piece of the healing, in the shame process was really precious for me to hear about.
Because I think inherent to shame is this isolation, and this hiding, and this, I’m not good enough. So don’t look at me. I’m just going to withdraw and hide and cover up and all these things. And so just to hear how the book brought about hope, even in that sense, was really, that wasn’t intended, I don’t think I don’t think I realized that as I was writing it. But it became such a beautiful testimony, the Lord kind of doing that work without me even realizing that would be part of the hope, the trajectory towards hope for readers. Yeah, but I hope it’ll be helpful. That’s all I can say.
Aaron Lee: Yeah, I mean, I think it is. I looked at the website recently… they ran out of pressings, so I think it’s on another… or they ran out of copies. So I think you’re on another pressing of this one. So yeah, congrats on that. I’m actually a fan of the entire series of books of this 31-Day Devotionals for Life. And I think your entry in this is definitely one of the better ones that I’ve read in there. So, thanks for writing it.
Esther Liu: Thanks.
Aaron Lee: I think in the book, you mentioned that, like, obviously, 31 days is not like enough, right time to, to like, I don’t know, go over like, somebody’s shame journey, from a counseling perspective. And I think that it’s interesting because you also said, like, I guess there’s this meta narrative of you trying to, you know, as you’re writing and how you felt isolated and alone in it…
How has the journey of writing this book impacted you personally in regards to shame and your faith? And I think for this one, yeah, you can talk about, you know, whatever some of the things that you talked about in the book if you’re comfortable with it. But yeah, I guess it’s like a processing question. How did the writing impact you?
Esther Liu: I remember when I was working on the book, and people would be checking in on me and asked me how it’s going, how I’m doing. I often responded with like, I’m writing a book on shame. And all I feel is shame. Like, that was literally my journey of writing this book, I don’t think there’s another word that captures better how to encapsulate the journey. And one word for me is shame.
And the first sentence of the introduction of the devotional is like this book was almost not written. And I said that because it was true. Like there are so many times I wanted to give up, there are so many times I was so sure that I was not qualified, competent enough, good enough still things. And it just made me want to throw in the towel and be like, I can’t do this, like, I’m not cut out for this. I don’t have what it takes. And I feel like that followed me from the very beginning to the very end of the book-writing journey.
And so it just so interesting how the Lord does that, where he’s like, you’re writing a book on shame. And I wanted to feel like an expert on it. Like, I wanted to come from the perspective of a counselor who has helped many people who have struggled with shame. And in some sense, that is me. And that’s part of my story and my life experience.
But instead, I felt like the Lord was like, I don’t want you to write this book, out of a place of being an expert on shame. But as someone who struggled with it and knows what it’s like, and as someone who has needed the very words that are written on these pages, as much as anyone else will need them. And so that was a very humbling experience. And I almost wish it could be different. Maybe at the time, I wish it could be different. But now in hindsight, that’s part of the richness and the beauty for me of what the journey was.
But yeah, I think I’m really grateful that the book has almost like encapsulates the journey of writing, like, there’s something special about that, that I can’t really put into words, but the hope, the courage, the comfort, that I so want readers to experience more through Christ, via this devotional, those were the very things that I needed, and that I experienced writing the book.
And I think if anything that I’ve learned from this whole experience, and writing it, and how it has impacted me, this will forever be a testimony of what it means to simply do my best to be faithful, however I can to do my best. Not knowing if he’ll fall short or not, not knowing if he’ll succeed or not not knowing what the outcome will be. But wanting so much to be faithful unto the Lord, with the small pneus that I have in the smallness that I am, and to be able to see how the Lord is able to use that for good. And so I remember Yeah, like I’ve, I was telling someone, like, I cry so often these days, but they’re not sad tears, they’re happy tears, because I receive. Yeah, these messages, again, of how this book is impacting people. And it’s beyond what I could have asked or imagined.
But I think that’s what I want for all of us is that there are so many of us who don’t feel good enough. And you know, for me, it was like, for years playing it safe. And not wanting to put myself out there and not wanting to try and then to fail and humiliate myself. So I’d rather not try at all. But I think from this experience in this journey, what I’ve learned and what I hope I’ll carry with me for the rest of my life and ministry is to have the courage to take those baby steps of obedience. Take those baby steps of faith and faithfulness. And to be able to see how the Lord uses that to bless other people. So hopefully, yeah, moving forward, I’ll have just an ounce more courage to continue doing the hard things that the Lord puts my way and to trust that there can be beautiful things that come out of that.
Aaron Lee: Esther, that’s great. That’s so good. Thank you so much. I can’t think of a better way to end our conversation than with what you just said. And I pray that this conversation will be a blessing and further the reach of your book and your writing ministry. Thank you so much for your time.
Esther Liu: Thank you so much, Aaron. This was a blast.